Homeland Security Given Data on Arab-Americans
The Census Bureau has provided specially tabulated population statistics on Arab-Americans to the Department of Homeland Security, including detailed information on how many people of Arab backgrounds live in certain ZIP codes.
The assistance is legal, but civil liberties groups and Arab-American advocacy organizations say it is a dangerous breach of public trust and liken it to the Census Bureau’s compilation of similar information about Japanese-Americans during World War II.
The tabulations were produced in August 2002 and December 2003 in response to requests from what is now the Customs and Border Protection division of the Department of Homeland Security. One set listed cities with more than 1,000 Arab-Americans. The second, far more detailed, provided ZIP-code-level breakdowns of Arab-American populations, sorted by country of origin. The categories provided were Egyptian, Iraqi, Jordanian, Lebanese, Moroccan, Palestinian, Syrian and two general categories, “Arab/Arabic” and “Other Arab.”
Hermann Habermann, deputy director of the Census Bureau, said such cooperation was standard practice. “We are required to provide information to other federal agencies,” he said. “This is not a cabal calculating secret tabulations.”
But Mr. Habermann also expressed concern over application of the data, adding: “We do worry about how information will be used. However, we have not been given the authority to determine which organization gets which information.”
The legal issue of this is null and void because the Census Bureau is not giving out individual identities, but rather zip codes as to the location of Arab Americans. These aren’t generalized five digit zip codes, but rather nine digit zip codes verifying exact locations. So where is the protection of identity in this? There is none.
Of course the Customs and Border Protection agency has stated the information will merely be used in order to place public signs in Arabic at airports, train stations and other mass transpiration locations. Odd how it only came about after 9/11 and that it is specific as to the origin of heritage of each Arab American on the zip code list.
Why would the Arab American organizations be speaking out about this and comparing it to what happened to Japanese Americans during World War II?
Because just last year the Census Bureau made a formal apology for allowing it’s statistics to be used to round up Japanese Americans and place them in camps during that war. I think that apology was long overdue.
It is my opinion that what is being done here is profiling. So next time the Census Bureau sends out the forms how many people will disclose their race? Their ethnic background? Their religion? Their anything?
Have we become a nation so scared of anyone who is Arab that we need to know their where-abouts 24/7?
So, when you have a way of identifying the most likely culprits based on past experience, why is it considered that it should be illegal to leverage that information? If it were White Males with other specific traits, neither you nor the ACLU would be whining.
It just makes logical sense to use the tools available and the only guidelines available. When the odds of being correct following one policy with limited resources is 90% more likely to turn up results versus spending those same limited resources on trying to dredge up potentials elsewhere, it makes more sense to concentrate on the likely areas. Those likely areas will lead to the fringe areas pretty easily whereas trying to come in from the fringe will be very difficult.
In short, it is a very Democrat, very leftist approach to try to claim discrimination just because people are using statistics to predict and best utilize resources. And yet permit statistics when it condemns whites (and particularly males).
Shannon – - It is profiling. It does not matter what race a person is – - ethnic background – - religious belief – - It is profiling and that is wrong.
My belief on this would be the same if it were any person – - male or female – - Arab American, Caucasian or other.
What is logical about knowing where every Arab American lives?
What results?
This is a paranoid attempt to track citizens who just happen to have Arab roots.
This is not a way to make mass transit easier for those who speak Arabic – - that’s a crock.
So instead of you saying it is me whining it is clear you are whining about Caucasian males when that isn’t even the point of this post and they weren’t even mentioned – - Therefore you are merely assuming what you believe I think about that instead of asking me.
And the questions at the end of my post were for all people – - not just those who are Arab American – - Would you still fill out the census form knowing they can use the information to profile you for not only good things for your community – - but also bad?
I will concede it is profiling, but a necessary evil in today’s world. I got a bit confused on your post, but if they are not takng it a step further and getting actual names, then I see no harm. The terrorist come from many countries including the USA, but I think they are watching a pattern developing. My guess would be that Dearborn or Detroit are major cities where they are watching.
Is it right? No Is it necessary? yes IMO
The reason they do not have to give out the names is because they are using extended zip codes. If they were just using five digit zip codes then the area of location where Arab Americans reside would be generalized – - However they are using extended nine digit zip codes that give the exact location – - so a name isn’t needed by the Census Bureau as Homeland Security has the ability to get the name for each exact location zip code. It is the loophole they are using to make this “legal”.
So you are saying it is necessary for you to know where all Arab Americans live because of what extreme Muslims have done?
To lie and say it is for the purpose of signs is just dumb. But yes Reilly, I do feel they need to track the settlements by country. The INS is a joke and created the mess we have on our hands with the illegals/student visas/short term travelers,etc. I don’t like the idea, but I can’t think of a better way at this point. Unfortunately it is always the few bad that ruin it for the greater good.
I would like to overhaul the INS first and foremeost. If they wanted to give me a tax increase for the sole purpose of putting state of the art technology into computer equipment into the INS,FBI,and CIA, I would have no problem with it. We could have an integrated system that could flag some of the people that are coming in, but as it is, they are working with 80′s technology and complacent workers.
We are talking about US citizens, peejz – - Arab Americans. Not illegals who wouldn’t fill out a census form to begin with – - Americans are being profiled for the purpose of being tracked and so they can have an eye kept on them.
Just because someone has skin that is a bit darker does not make them an illegal nor does it make them a terrorist.
So by what you are saying that you believe “settlements” should be tracked by country – - Who is more dangerous to you, peejz? Being that many of the 9/11 terrorists had Saudi Arabia passports – - are the Saudis more dangerous then?
This is profiling. It is wrong.
There are Arab Americans who love this nation. Who pay their taxes. Who fill out Census forms. Who take part in community efforts and events – - are these people a threat to you? Do you need to know what they are doing 24/7?
Do you honestly think terrorists are going to be found through profiling forms from the census bureau?
Let’s not forget what happened during WWII.
I don’t think it is so far-fetched that there are some people that are sent ahead to actually set up residency in this country, and afterward, others follow that go un-documented.
I agree that it is profiling, but do you have another option that I am overlooking?
With what you are saying, peejz – - it would seem that you are frightened of Arab Americans who are hard working citizens in this nation and tax payers and our neighbors and friends because of what some Arabs have done throughout this world. Yes, the acts of terrorism against Americans and others throughout the world are horrific and need to be stopped – - but is profiling Americans making you feel more safe?
What if they were profiling you?
As Shannon brought up earlier – - what if they were profiling Caucasions?
Because of what Hitler did should Austrian Americans be profiled?
Because of WWII should Japanese Americans be profiled?
Because of the murder of Jews should German Americans be profiled?
Let’s not forget that it was a Caucasion male – American – who did the Oklahoma City bombing – - should they all be profiled too?
No Reilly I never said that I am freightened by arab americans. I have said that It is profiling and that I don’t like it, but I also asked if you could come up with a better solution.
I too have asked you several questions as well, peejz.
But would settle with a response to why is it necessary for them to be doing this and keeping an eye on these so-called “settlements” you mentioned? If it isn’t done to profile then what is it being done for?
Why is it OK to do this to Arab Americans?
yes I know you said profiling is wrong – - but then you also said it is necessary – - so which is it?
My solution is an easy one – Stop selective profiling – - why not profile all Americans instead of a select group? Either do that or stop profiling all together.
I don’t see any reason at all why this should be done. There is enough intelligence information being collected and successfully so without profiling every Arab American and keeping an “eye on them” just because of their heritage.
It is for information gathering pure and simple.
I think we will not see eye to eye on this at this point.
Reilly,
But would settle with a response to why is it necessary for them to be doing this and keeping an eye on these so-called “settlements” you mentioned? If it isn’t done to profile then what is it being done for?
This is a fair question. Certainly you are not naive to not think that law enforcement does not know where clusters of (for example) Russian Americans or Chinese Americans live? Certainly I would think that you agree that when looking for a member of a Russian gang, or a member of a Chinese gang, you are going to look in those areas first. We HAVE that information from history. We know were certain groups live. That information is used to help track down criminals that use their ethnicity to hide in plain site amongst the population of those specific areas.
There is a tension between the average American and the average Arab American. Some people look and see that the vast majority of people commiting terrorists acts are of Arab descent.
It doesn’t help that Arab American groups tell people in their community not to help the police, FBI or Homeland Security in any way when they are trying to stop terrorism.
Information such as this can be used as a starting point as to where a potential terrorist might be hiding.
If the US has information that noted terrorist “John Doe” is in the US, isn’t it most logical to start looking for him in the places where he will blend in, and be the least noticable?
While I can see that the information could be used for profiling, I actually think that it will be used for investigation jump off purposes.
Take care.
While I can see that the information could be used for profiling, I actually think that it will be used for investigation jump off purposes.
Well worded, gitarcarver. That was my viewpoint, but poorly stated. There has to be a place to start on the investigation. The left calls these starting points “profiling” and what is forgotten is that profiling has been done for decades. It is a way of building up information on who to look for when there is no witness to get a description from.
Reilly – my comment on the White Male was just an example. You completely dumped the rest of what I said and grabbed on that point. That’s taking something of inconsequence in an argument and deciding the rest of the argument must be invalid even though if you take that point out, the argument is still valid.
Also think back to several “American Citizens” that this type of profiling might have caught a bit earlier, ie the Portland 7
Here is an article from the day of Mike Hawash’s sentencing.
The following is from “The Oregonian” Our main Paper in Oregon
‘Proud to be a U.S. citizen’
A repentant Maher Hawash blames only himself — not Islam or the U.S. government — for his legal troubles
Tuesday, February 10, 2004
T he U.S. government treated Maher “Mike” Hawash fairly and with dignity.
Those aren’t our words. Nor are they the prosecutors’ words. They’re the words of Hawash himself, uttered Monday in U.S. District Judge Robert E. Jones’ courtroom.
They’re important words, given the heated claims that his friends and backers made about Hawash’s unfair arrest and detention last year, but maybe not the most important words spoken Monday. Those came from Jones and Hawash himself.
Jones reminded everyone that the Portland Seven case was not about abstractions. If Hawash had been able to enter Afghanistan and fight against U.S. military forces, he might have killed our soldiers — like the young man in Jones’ court Monday who had served in Afghanistan. It was a sobering reminder of the stakes in the case.
The judge also reminded the courtroom that the government had conducted itself according to the law and Constitution from the start of the Hawash case. Hot rhetoric to the contrary, Hawash had access to a lawyer even before his arrest. The government came before the court with a long list of allegations and evidence of probable cause for its actions. The court “carefully supervised” all the warrants, and Hawash made use of his right to remain silent under the Fifth Amendment. In short, Jones said, “not one constitutional violation took place.” Yet Hawash allowed his friends to claim in public that an innocent man’s rights were being violated.
On Monday, Hawash took full responsibility for his troubles. He didn’t blame Islam (“Islam does not teach aggression”). He didn’t blame the government. In fact, he maintained he was “proud to be a U.S. citizen.” Hawash blamed himself for what he said was a temporary diversion in a life of peace and caring.
Then what explained his decision to head off to Afghanistan? He was unable to believe that anyone associated with Islam could have been responsible for the horror of 9/11, and he felt an obligation to defend Islamic brothers who were being unfairly blamed for the attacks.
Hawash says he came to have misgivings about what he was doing as soon as he arrived overseas. He says he wanted to tell the truth about what he had done as soon as he was arrested. He might have saved himself, his family and his friends a lot of trouble if he’d come clean upon his return home.
Given all this, it’s easier now to understand how his friends were fooled, though it’s impossible to defend all of their outlandish rhetoric. In a sense, Hawash was a victim of 9/11, part of its collateral damage. At a tumultuous moment in time, a smart and sensitive man slipped temporarily into an abyss.
We don’t think there’s anything inconsistent in congratulating the government for putting Hawash behind bars. Or wishing a repentant Hawash a productive return home in seven years.
Reilly….This man was respected in the community had a family coached sports and was a design engineer for Intel… without profiling we missed him and he “Might”
have been able to kill Americans if he had been able to “get in country” as the saying goes. Personally I am AGAINST Profiling in general but not in this case.
Kevin
It’s always been my belief that if you’re not doing anything wrong, you don’t have anything to worry about.
Me? Let them watch me all they want. I could care less, i’m not hiding anything.
I couldn’t disagree more.
In the United States, we begin with the premise that we are all innocent and not guilty of anything and therefore not deserving to be watched, followed or investigated.
I have not done anything wrong, therefore no one should be looking.
That is quite different from “go ahead and look, I have nothing to hide.”
While at this point in time I disagree with Reilly’s point that this data is similar to the Japanese internment in WWII, I can see the possibility for abuse.
I don’t see this as profiling because profiling is singling out an individual because of a group’s actions or look.
No one has been singled out in this case. The potential for abuse is there, and it is a valid concern.
It is something that needs to be monitored.
Finally, I am always amazed and mindful that people (including me) have a tendancy to speak of the “government” as some unknown, huge entity made up of unknown people.
It isn’t.
The government is comprised of you and me. It has workers that live down the street and across the country.
Hopefully, these men and women will have the good sense and moral conscience to stop, if necessary, the type of abuse that Reilly is concerned with.
Nothing is truer than “evil flourishes when good men stand by and do nothing.”
Take care.
In my opinion I whole heartly agree with peejz, with what we are facing in this dangerous time, profiling is nesscary.
Profiling is both un-Constitutional and counterproductive.
Take a moment and imagine this scenario…..
You drive into the grocery store parking lot. A couple of cops are talking in their car nearby. You and your kids get out, go into the store where another policeman is getting some doughnuts.
He gives you the once over – twice.
You do your shopping (milk, cereal, eggs, cheese, some steaks, potatoes, salad fxings, and an apple pie.) You are exicted about the “all American dinner” you are about to go home, cook, serve, and share with your kids.
You pay at the check out, and think you notice a different policeman following you through the lines and out the exit.
You get to your car, open the door and suddenly there are 5 policemen talking to you.
They keep their right hands on their service weapons as they tell you to keep your hands where they can be seen.
They separate you from your now screaming and crying kids.
They detain you for “questioning” in the parking lot, all the while your kids are crying and your neighbors wonder what is going on?
You ask the cops for information and are told nothing. After all, they stopped you and they will ask the questions.
An hour later, they let you go.
You collect your kids, get in the car and drive home. Once home you tell your spouse how you were stopped for no reason, scaring the kids and spoiling the day.
Your neighbors call and want to know what you did, or what was happening.
Later that night, while watching the local news on your favorite station, you find out that you were wearing a red shirt, and the police had a terrorist warning about a group that wore red shirts.
Now, besides the fact that the police have wasted several man hours in a fruitless chase for information from you; despite your neighbors now think you must be guilty of something (after all, why would the police stop you if you weren’t?); despite the fact that your name and address now appears in an investigation concerning terrorism; despite the fact that your kids were scared to death……
…. sit there and tell me that you now trust the police and their tactics.
No one would.
So instead of being supportative of the police and willing to be on the lookout for terrorists or illegal activities, you no longer want anything to do with the police.
The police, by profiling, have burned a potential valuable resource for information as to suspicius activities in your workplace or neighborhood.
After all, who would want anyone to go through what you just did?
In the long run, profiling hurts police and law enforcement efforts. It is counterproductive on every front.
It also is against the Constitution.
Thankfully.
Take care.
PS – in case you are wondering, I was the victim of a profiling incident in real life. It wasn’t quite like this, but the rumors that followed me have never died, and this incident happened over 8 years ago.
Profiling is wrong.
Once you have given up one individual’s freedom under the Constitution, you have given up that freedom for all people.
There is no excuse for this- none.
Ted
Again, profiling unfortunately, is nessacary. We cant shut the country off from the rest of the world and what I do know, read and watch on television is that terrorist cells in this country will stop at nothing to kill as many Americans as they can. Small pox, dirty bombs, Sarin gas, nuclear bombs, suicide bombers…etc, what else do we do????
dee,
With all due respect, how can anything that is counterproductive to stated goals, as well as being unConstitutional be “necessary?”
If you want to catch terrorists, you don’t go about it by alienating the very people you count on to help you catch them.
Take care.
what do you do then?
dee,
You do exactly what the military, the cops, the FBI and I would bet a whole lot of other agencies did in the arrest of the 2 people in Albany who are accused of trying to buy surface to air missiles.
The FBI got started on this investigation because of a tip from a person in the neighborhood as well as information found by US troops in Iraq. They used that tip to expand upon the investigation, set up a sting, and apparently have stopped or at least put a dent into a possible larger operation.
Source: Iraq Evidence Led Feds to Albany Mosque
So using evidence found by the US military, given to US domestic law enforcement agencies, and an informant / tipster within the community these men were arrested and charged.
No one was profiled.
No one was accused of being a terrorist or suspected of being anti-American for simply being in a certain neighborhood or of a certain race or religion.
The system can and will work when we truly put the idea of “innocent until proven guilty” into practice, as was done here.
It works when we follow the laws and principles upon which this country was founded, and made great.
Take care.