Terri Schiavo has died.
She passed away at 9:03 AM EST.
May she rest in peace.
133 Comments.
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Never deal with the ideas, just give them a label like tiresome,or idiotic. Its same time and thinking.
51-We deal with facts here. Your posts are filled with mistruths. There is no point in talking to someone who doesn’t take the time to verify what they write.
we deal here in facts?
yeah, sometimes.
we also deal deal in disrespect, threats, hatred & mocking derison.
why is it that different opinions generate these thngs.
to call the poor scum, worthless & living off the
work of others is not a fact. there are always those who abuse the system. let’s comment on those who don’t for once.
deal with that mistruth.
Shiloh,,, going back to Califirina?
53-let me guess, it isn’t your fault you live off the system?
i don’t live off the sysem unless you’re talking about the Capitalistic System.
is it your position that all poverty is self induced?
56- We have been over this time and again, so I think this is pointless isn’t it?:roll:
then 55 wasn’t a question. there was a question mark at the end – pardon my confusion.
It has come to be expected from you.
as is the trademark eye rolling yellow face at the end of your posts.
See what people that live off the system do to me?
& i hear by what judgements we judge, so shall we be judged.
We will see.
i see nothing has changed here
64- I guess not. You come back again and again after promising not to.
65. Wouldn’t want to disappoint you, peejz, or force you to actually say something of value.
66-But why waste it on you? You can’t even be true to yourself?
67. Other than playing around here re: leaving, etc., I’m very true to myslef. You know nothing of me other than the banter at this site (and it is a game of sorts). Of the close to 6000 posts you’ve made here, peejz, how many are put-downs, ridicule of opposing views, insults, etc.? I have no idea and will not count them, but I’d guess it’s well over half. Those put-downs do nothing to persuade opponents you have a better idea/concept. Rather, they reinforce opposition. As to my sarcasm, I’m merely returning what is delivered. When in Rome … (speaking of which, I do pray for the Pope although I am not Catholic. He has had an extraordinary life).
68-Read them and then get back to me. They date back to the beginning of the site. I believe it is 3 years.
Now lets talk about the returning of the sarcasm. Is it okay for you to do it but not Mike or me or anyone else? See this is a blog. Sometimes we get along and sometimes we don’t. That is what makes blogging fun. So if you don’t want people to talk to you, don’t post or just ignore them. You obviously like being here. So stop threatening to leave or at the very least, stop telling the person that you are talking to everyone but them. You are putting a bullseye on yourself every time you do that. It isn’t that difficult.
I too am thinking of the Pope. He really had an extrordinary life.
69. Fair enough, peejz.
69. But, I’m not gonna read all of it ……
Oh ellis
21,
Terry, if 21 was a joke, it wasn’t funny. This is the second time you’ve related the majority of Americans to Nazis. And this is the second time I’ll tell you to think before you start comparing anything to do with the Schiavo case to the Jewish/Roma/homosexual/mentally ill experience from 1933-1945. Cheapening history is fine, as long as it serves your millenialist vision, eh?
i really dont care if she was kept alive or dead but all i know is that it would not have hurt anyone to keep her alive
she died and its all
:mad::cry:beacuse of her sick husband
I am so upsey that she died and its allbeacuse of her sick husband:evil::cry:
I hate her husband!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:cry::mad::evil:
Did you actually know Terri Schiavo?
78- good point.
I think it is dangerous when a culture becomes apathetic towards life, where human lives are taken for convenience sake. This is “the culture of death”the Pope spoke about. Where in America abortion is used to take innocent lives at an alarming rate ~ 1 Million a year, even though there are many people who would adopt these children; love and care for them, people who have been waiting a long time for a child. This apathy also extends to people who are disabled or elderly, as in Terri’s case or in the recent legislation passed in the Netherlands promoting a suicide pill for the elderly, or the recent statement by an “ethicist”talking about people with “worthless livesâ€. It is prideful and dangerous when we start talking about people as “worthless”or having no “quality of lifeâ€. Who determines this? We all have flaws, every single one of us. Some have physical disabilities, some have mental ones and some people are just mean and hateful.
I am 35 years old and have Cystic Fibrosis, which is a genetic lung disease that should have finished me off years ago according to most literature. Life has not been the easiest over the years, with hospitalizations, IV antibiotics and sometimes needing oxygen, but this has given me a respect for life. I am glad the current trend towards prenatal genetic testing was not around when I was born. In someone’s mind they may have projected I would not have a sufficient quality of life and decided to abort me. I am glad I am here!!! I am married to a loving wife and I have adopted two children whom I love dearly. I also am able to run my own company from home, to be a productive part of society.
Sometimes doing the right thing is a lot more difficult than doing what is convenient. I believe valuing human life is the right thing to do, and we will see a long term benefit of more than we can imagine if we make the investment. We need to remember in our interactions in this world that other people are just like us, and that except by the grace of God we could end up in the same situation as Terri. None of us knows what life will bring, one day we will all die; there is no need to hasten it along. Impatience is another key fault of our current culture.
Here is a list of some famous people with disabilities (it is not complete):
http://ericec.org/fact/famous.html
Finally remember Jesus’ commands to “Love your neighbor as yourself”and to “Love you enemyâ€. Love is not just an emotion; it is a conscious decision of the will. How else can we love our enemy?
Sincerely,
John
PS: if food and water is life support, then everyone is on life support
John- I am sorry to hear about your illness, but to compare your Cystic Fibrosis to Terri Schaivo is really just silly. You listed famous people with “disabilities” but not one is in a persistent vegetative state. You say you require help, yet you run a company. That is tremendous, but again, nothing like the Schaivo case. I wish for you a cure within your life time, or at the very least, your childrens’. And God forbid, if you and your family do find themselves faced with a situation such as the one that faced Michael Schaivo, I wish your wife and kids the privacy and the dignity to carry out your wishes. That is without the spotlight of the nation judging them. People we don’t even know, yet form opinions based on hearsay and emotions.
Hi peejz,
I was not comparing Cystic Fibrosis directly to Terri’s condition. I was saying there is a trend in today’s culture to want to eliminate people who would be considered to have a lesser quality of life, and Terri’s case is the first step. My point about the CF was that I may have a lesser quality of life but I am happy to be here and would not have wanted someone to make that decision for me before I was born, hence the comment about prenatal genetic testing.
As for a famous person closer to Terri’s condition how about Steven Hawking who has ALS and can only move his eyes, which with a special device allows him to speak, otherwise he cannot move, care for himself or feed himself.
Please see http://www.hawking.org.uk/disable/dindex.html
As for Terri there was debate over her diagnosis and her Parents and many other doctors, lawyers and care givers said she was not in a PVS. It was said that she could understand and respond to people around her.
Please see http://www.terrisfight.org/
Read the “myths about Terri” section as well as the “court documents” section showing the affidavits. The web site is sponsored by her parents who are closer to the situation than any of us.
Also if all of the family was in agreement you would not have heard a word about the case. Her parents have been fighting for years to get treatments for her that her husband had denied her. I would normally be in favor of a husband being able to make medical decisions about his wife, unless the husband did not have the best interests of his wife at heart, then it becomes a case for the courts and should be given due process.
As for me I would chose life.
Sincerely,
John
John, well stated.
I hope you aware that by “choosing life”, you will be called a religious bigot and an intolerant neandrathal by the lefties who frequent this site.
As John’s pastor, I would also add that he is the head elder in our congregation and a valued friend of mine.
Here’s my two shekels on the matter. A noted neurologist from the Mayo clinic examined Terri not long before she died and he concluded that she was NOT in a PVS. Saying something over and over again doesn’t make it true. At the very least, any honest person would have to admit that this diagnosis was controverted. Highly reputable physicians did not agree. In such cases, don’t you think the benefit of the doubt should go toward preserving a life?
And John’s point of talking about his chronic condition in light of what happened to Terri, is relevant. Why else do you think that EVERY major disabilities rights activist group in American filed legal briefs in defense of Terri’s life? Because they know something that many refuse to see. Slippery slopes do exist. Cf. Holland.
This is not a left-wing vs. right-wing issue, as some suggest. Typical example of the straw man fallacy. Mis-characterize your opponents to make them easier to bash, like a straw man. Ralph Nader, Nat Hentoff (of the Village Voice), Jesse Jackson, Joe Lieberman, and Alan Dershowitz are definitely not right-wing or conservative but that have all spoken against starving Terri. Ralph Nader, former Green party candidate for PotUS, called this sanctioned homicide. Don’t you think that when Ralph Nader, Jesse Jackson and George W. Bush agree on an issue, we can say it’s not a partisan matter? I believe this is because truly open-minded people, who know the facts, see this for what it was. Some just don’t care.
And when can we get past this tired harangue that pro-life people don’t care about the poor? How many of you would like to join me on my next trip to the jungles of southern Sudan? Last time I was there, I saw some real poor people. There aren’t any poor people in the US (I’m exaggerating, I know; it’s called hyperbole). Even most homeless people here have a higher standard of living than the malarial malnourished children who have to worry about stepping on landmines or being kidnapped and islamized by their neighbors.
And finally, we should all try to avoid the ad hominem attacks. Argue the issue, not the person.
Scott
Scott,
Great post.
I have argued many times on this board that having free medical care, subsidized housing, subsidized utilities, cable TV and enough free money every month to buy as much ho-ho’s, ring dings and strawberry sodas as you can handle is HARDLY poor.
..but I’m just a mean-spiritied, racist, homophobic conservative, so….what do I know?
Thanks Mike. Last night, I taught a class of 7th and 8th graders. They asked me about Terri Schiavo. And I asked them what they knew about the case. Not one of them understood the facts. And all of them thought starving her was right. Then I dispassionately told them essentially what I wrote above. I said, “Terri was not sick; she was not in the process of dying; she was not on life support; doctors don’t agree about the level of activity in her brain; she was quite responsive to stimuli, etc.” When I finished, not one of them believed starving her was right. The truth sells itself, at least to those who have ears to hear. I’ve got my fair share of people who hate me too. But then, so did Jesus.
86. Scott, did you also tell your class that Terri’s husband had full, legal authority for her treatment, and that this fact was confirmed repeatedly by approximately 30 court decisions? That Terri had articulated to her husband that she did not want to be kept alive by medical equipment or devices (and feeding tubes are medical equipment)? That the neurologist who intervened at the 11th hour wrongly professed to be a Nobel nominee thereby impugning his integrity, and that his credentials were questioned by some? That the competent, qualified physicians who treated Terri for years concluded she was in a PVS? That the “responses” Terri was “showing” were actually involuntary movements and sounds that competent physicians say are often mistaken for actual response by loved ones and those who are so inclined to think that? That Congress intervened by passing an unconstitutional law that was so adjudged by several courts including conservative jurists? That death in the manner Terri died occurs every day, and that competent medical professionals say it is a peaceful process as the body shuts down?
In other words, how complete an argument did you present last night? Or, was it merely an impassioned, one-sided, evangelical, right-to-life plea? Was your presentation fair and accurate?
I’m not for starving folks, but I also believe that this most intimate decision did not belong on TV, in Congress (especially since it was most likely just politicizing), etc.
In response to Kilo’s comment, I do not consider Scott (or others) a “religious bigot and an intolerant neandrathal.” Kilo, that is your simplistic, antagonistic manner of dismissing debate. I respect their position and right to think as they do although I disagree.
Ellis, the fact of the matter is that we do not know Terri actually said to her husband that she would not want to live like that. If there was documentation, it would have made the whole thing a ton easier. The fact is her parents were willing to pay to take care of her and wanted to keep her alive. Her husband should have just let them do what they wanted with their daughter.
I agree it should NEVER have gone to Congress.
In other news, did you all hear about Peter Jennings? Terrible.
84-Scott you might be wise to take your own advise. Repeating something over and over does not make it the truth. That Neurologist was an active member of a Right to Life group was he not? We will know soon enough what the autopsy says with regards to her state.
As for Africa, I am not quite sure what this has to do with Terri Schaivo.
88. K, courts adjudged that Terri’s husband was correct. As to whether he should have relented to the Schindler’s, that’s a personal, intimate decision. By not backing the husband, one is slamming the sanctity of marriage that most conservatives hold dear (note: all conservatives did not oppose Mr. Schiavo).
Does this really boil down to a debate about how cognizant Terri Schiavo was???
I think she was basically brain dead. Almost every argument that I have seen suggesting that she should have lived suggests that she was still mentally coherent on some level. Perhaps that is the fundamental disagreement.
In response to Kilo’s comment, I do not consider Scott (or others) a “religious bigot and an intolerant Neanderthal.”Kilo; that is your simplistic, antagonistic manner of dismissing debate. I respect their position and right to think as they do although I disagree.
What I told my students is that life is a gift from God and that we do not have the right to decide when we should to die. This is something we believe, something the Schindlers believe and something, they say, Terri believed.
You choose to believe Michael Schiavo’s account of things. I choose to believe the Schindlers. Again, since there is no advance directive, and the Schindlers wanted to care for their daughter, I would have erred on the side of life.
I also told them, truly, that just because something is legal doesn’t mean it is right. I’m sure you agree with that.
Yes, I was fair and accurate with my students. I referenced the articles by the left-wing atheist Nat Hentoff and Ralph Nader. These are two men that I seldom quote. In other words, I didn’t limit my sources to the “usual suspects.”
I did exactly what I suspect you would have done. I gave them the facts as I understand them. Is the fact that I am a traditionalist Lutheran and pro-life mean that I am incapable of objectivity? Or that, as you put it, I can’t be fair and accurate?
The doctors were not unanimous in their diagnosis of Terri. And a doctor being pro-life, in itself, should not obviate his opinion. Additionally, we need to recognize that there is still a great deal of mystery surrounding our understanding of the human brain and life and the spirit. Yes? Doctors don’t know everything. There are limits to what human reason can discern. One year they tell us eggs are bad for us, the next they say they’re good. Which is it? My point is that when there is dispute and disagreement, it is best to, as Senator Lieberman said, give life the benefit of the doubt. But maybe for some there is no doubt. Hubris.
PVS is often misdiagnosed and confused with other similar conditions. There have been people who were diagnosed with PVS and recovered who have said that they were more aware than was thought. Maybe those people are pro-life too, so can’t be fair and accurate.
And bringing up the issue of the sanctity of marriage as a means to accuse people like me of being hypocrites is strange. Michael Schiavo has a common law marriage with another woman, by whom he has children, and with whom he has lived twice as long as he lived with Terri. He is a bigamist. Who is it, again, who is trampling the sanctity of marriage?
And please, if you want to slowly kill your wife, the law shouldn’t intervene because you’re married. She was his wife, not his property. Nothing is as sacred as saving a human life.
What I don’t understand is if the objective were to relieve Terri’s suffering, why not give her a lethal injection to get it over with sooner?
And I brought up the poor in Africa because someone above criticized the pro-life crowd for caring about starving Terri, but not the starving in the third world. That’s a red herring. No one is doing more to help the poor of the world than the Christian church.
Scott
92. “There have been people who were diagnosed with PVS and recovered who have said that they were more aware than was thought.” — It was my understanding that no one has been known to recover from PVS. From a coma, yes; PVS, no. Could you provide sources for your info? I’d truly like to review them.
“…the law shouldn’t intervene because you’re married” — then change the law. The rule of law applies. Or, is that only the case when convenient? Was it appropriate for Tom DeLay to comment that the judges who applied the law and Constitution would have to answer for their decisions?
“…just because something is legal doesn’t mean it is right” — agreed. Capital punishment in many, many cases is an example.
“…we do not have the right to decide when we should to die” — in all cases? Why have advance directive laws then?
“…referenced the articles by the left-wing atheist Nat Hentoff and Ralph Nader” — not exactly the two most prominent authorities on the issue. I’ll presume you also referred to right-wing evangelical authorities.
“…if the objective were to relieve Terri’s suffering” — I understood that folks with PVS do not suffer, emote, respond, etc. They are vegetative and move on impulse. The objective was to honor Terri’s wishes as articulated to her husband, and adjudged by multiple courts.
Scott, I understand your positions, but clearly don’t agree with them. That’s how things go.
Director of Michael Schiavo insurance company contributed to Senator King’s political campaign
by Judi McLeod, Editor,
Tuesday, April 5, 2005
Conflicts of interest among key players in the Terri Schiavo controversy could give the United Nations oil-for-food investigation a run for its money.
The conflict of interest-ridden Schiavo case goes beyond membership on the board of directors of the hospice where Terri Schiavo died and even beyond the ties of key players to the right-to-die movement.
Conflicts of interest crop up in the Jerger & Centonze Insurnace (sic) Agency established in January 2001 at the home of Michael Schiavo and girlfriend/fiancé Jody Centonze.
Michael, reported to be on the lam since his wife’s death, is listed on the Board of Directors for the Clearwater, Florida Corporation.
The mailing address for Jerger & Centonze Insurnace (sic) Agency Inc. is 2807 Marrie Court.
Listed as directors of the insurance agency at the Marrie Court address are Richard M. Jerger Jr. and Catherine M. Quinn-Jerger.
Campaign contributors to the political campaign of district 8 Florida Senator James W. “Jim” King include Richard M. Jerger of Jerger & Centonze Insurnace Agency (sic).
Senator King seemed in a rush for Terri Schiavo to depart planet earth.
you can read the rest of this at canadafreepress.com.
Hi Ellis,
In regards to your post 93 “then change the law”, that is exactly what congress was trying to do, to make the law more explicit in this area. Also all avenues should have been exhausted BEFORE a step as final a death was imposed, that means leave the feeding tube in until that point. In addition if the husband does not have the best interests of the wife at heart, the law does (in other circumstances), should and must intervene to protect its citizens. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are the ideals our Constitution was based on, but only work when the latter ones does not trample on the earlier ones, giving precedence in the order above, Life – First, Liberty – Second and the Pursuit of Happiness – Third. It is the job of all governments to protect their citizens especially those who are innocent and cannot protect themselves. There is much that is evil in human nature; hence the need for laws, lawyers, judges, courts, and the penal systems. A big part of this debate is where the line should be drawn. In my original post (80), I made the point that it is dangerous for a culture to lose its value for life, and I gave several examples of how the current world culture and our own in the US is changing from a culture that valued life to one that does not. Terri’s case is just one more step. I do not want to see a return to the evils of WWII in Germany where people are targeted as a burden on society (mostly economic) and eliminated enmass. This occurred for the Six Million Jews killed, who were scapegoats (blamed for the economic state of a Germany trying to recover from the war repartitions and sanction from WWI) as well as the other 7 to 20 Million “undesirables”who were also eliminated as a “Burden”on society.
Please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust
These “undesirables”included the mentally & physically disabled, infants, children and elderly, as well as a host of others. (do a search on the Nazi T4 project) The death camps did not pop up overnight; they were a result of a shift in the culture to a “culture of death”that took place over time, with Germany’s economic problems used as the reason (I am not saying this justifies or lessens the blame in any way for all of those involved, it was just one of the reasons given for something that defies reason). These allowed evil men to take charge of the country who would not have otherwise been heard. When people including the Church, spoke out about these atrocities they were placed on the list of Political dissidents and became part of the eliminated “undesirablesâ€, if they did not escape the country or stop their protests.
My original point was that our culture is trending towards a disregard for human life. Things that were once abhorred by previous generations have now become “rightsâ€, namely abortion, euthanasia, prenatal genetic testing and the like. Population control through these methods has become a part of several countries policies including China (through limiting families to one child, forced sterilization etc.) and the Netherlands (through adoption of euthanasia and infanticide laws). Population control in the third world has been encouraged by our own country and the UN as well. All these are done for the “economic welfare”of the countries involved. Many other “modern”countries are facing a shift in there population demographics towards a higher elderly population due to low birth rates, most of Europe, the US & Canada. Japan at 1.3 children per family faces the worst crisis, especially since strictly limit immigration. As the elderly population goes up the cost to support them, for each working person increases. You can see this problem in our own Social Security and Medicare system. I do not want it to become too easy for the government in the future, to decide that euthanasia is the solution. History can and will repeat itself if we are not careful.
Finally I would favor the impassioned pleas of a pro-life stance to the dispassionate bean counter approach, especially if the counter does not know the true value of a Human-bean.
Sincerely,
John
95- No John, they were not trying to change the law, they made a decision for 1 person and only 1 person.
The legal and medical options were exhausted. You didn’t like the decisions and that is your right, but it has nothing to do with Michael Schaivo.
92- What is the Christian Church? And what exactly are you doing in Africa?
91- Zelda, to some it is, but to others not. They have the image of that 1 video that played over and over. Bright lights and a balloon in her face.
peejz,
please see “Incapacitated Person’s Legal Protection Act”(H.R. 1151). 3/10/2005 Referred to House subcommittee. Status: Referred to the Subcommittee on the Constitution
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.1151:
this link may not have posted correctly if not do a Google search for H.R. 1151,
This bill was not for just one person, yes it has not been passed, but it is still under consideration. Please don’t be so quick to criticize, when you don’t consider all of the information thank you,
John
I am upset that this has been framed as a right to die case. This was not a terminally ill woman. She was breathing on her own. This isn’t even a case where we know what her wishes were. Her lying cheating husband said this is what she wanted after getting money for her lifelong care.
We as a society starved her to death. It is easy to put this on her husband but he couldn’t have killed her without the help of the courts. And we as a society have to do something to reign in these courts or it will be our lives, our families lives and our friends lives that may be snuffed out tommorrow.