Indonesia is the world’s fourth most populous country, with 220 million people, 85 percent of whom follow Islam, giving the Asian archipelago the largest Muslim population of any nation in the world.
Michelle did the math on that for you:that’s 19 million Muslims for violent jihad in “moderate” Indonesia alone.
…yes, and in the US a respectable amount of people approved starting a regular war for an unverified (wrong!) justification. Doesn’t sound more philanthropic to me..
So where’s the point?!
Oh I think you know the point:wink: We aren’t really talking about a ‘few’ Mulims hell bent on destruction..we are actually talking about many millions of people from all over the world!
Mattias,
your hindsight is 20/20, but will you be truthful about the information available at the time of toppling Saddam? Will you acknowledge the 17 ignored UN Resolutions? Will you acknowledge Saddam thumbing his nose at the world in defiance rather than saying, “See, I have nothing” and not playing games about it?
If you can’t, you aren’t worth talking to.
“:yes, and in the US a respectable amount of people approved starting a regular war for an unverified (wrong!) justification. Doesn’t sound more philanthropic to me..”
Methinks your premise is inaccurate.
Will you acknowledge the 17 ignored UN Resolutions? Will you acknowledge Saddam thumbing his nose at the world in defiance rather than saying, “See, I have nothing”and not playing games about it?
So a minority of a country (= the Baath Party, Saddam and the rest of his asshole family) who ignore the UN that they don’t like/respect anyway (HELLO-HOOO???) and its resolutions are justification enough to start sth. that
a) kills more than 1000 US soldiers,
b) kills even more thousands of Iraqi soldiers and civilians and
c) starts a civil war with even more people dying per day than in the Saddam days???
No… sorry. I cannot understand how people who approve this can dare to criticize/judge on other people’s disgusting & murderous attitude! So… WHERE’S THE POINT?
Mattias,
My how stupid you are! I can’t see how anyone who prides themselves in their intellect could condone, support, and want Saddam to stay in power killing people, harboring terrorists, and threatening world peace. You are a piece of poor work.
.. and want Saddam to stay in power killing people, harboring terrorists,..
Yes, i know… that it is a much better choice to have de facto nobody in power in Iraq and everyone killing everybody and everyone ,who likes to express his “political views”, commiting terror assaults… But hey, THEY ARE FINALLY FREE! Hiphip Hooray! What an improvement!!
…and threatening world peace.
Do you know Monty Python’s Flying Circus? There’s an episode with a poll on the street on the topic of “Peace”, where one jerk says:”I’d start war for peace…”
I really wonder who is stupid here…
Mattias,
You are. You are myopic and condescending to the world. You aren’t giving the Iraqis a chance. You just want a Taliban of Liberalism to run the world. Go back to Animal Farm.
You aren’t giving the Iraqis a chance.
Which Iraqis? The good ones or the bad ones?
I mean, I’m not the one pointing at folks in Indonesia and say on one hand “Hey, look at those violent people! They are approving a “holy war” and terror!” and on the other hand claiming “It’s okay to kill thousands of people for a good purpose- even if the outcome is in the sense of body count worse than the situation before!”
I don’t see any comment from you on the killing, victims or the nature of war. What do liberated people care about their freedom if they are dead or if they live in the permanent danger of getting killed- dead is dead! I’m a realist- you are pathetic…
Mattias,
To put it bluntly, you are a total fool.
Get out of your basement and experience the world.
PCD- he is married to a Muslim and therefore excuses all bad behavior on their part..it is all aour fault for standing up to them.
And the US isn’t killing those Iraqis..the Iraqis are killing themselves…
9, who he is married to doesn’t change the fact that he is a fool.
He was that way prior to saying I DO:wink:
And the US isn’t killing those Iraqis..the Iraqis are killing themselves:
That is what most people call a civil war. I say it again: What an improvement!?
Mattias,
To put it bluntly, you are a total fool.
Get out of your basement and experience the world.
Other than such a argument-less redneck like you- At least I have a basement… and electrical power.. a bathroom… a wife that wasn’t a relative of mine before my marriage…
Gimme some real arguments instead of (really uninspired) insults.. or keep on playing your banjo when adults speak!
@Peejz:
I really expected something better from you, than this rubbish on the level of Mr. Louisiana-Swampguy. I mean, what does my wife exactly has to do with some folks from Indonesia… And where exactly did I excuse their attitude in my statements above???
You wife has about as much to do with Indonesia as GWB and Iraq does….
Re 5:
So a minority of a country (= the Baath Party, Saddam and the rest of his asshole family) who ignore the UN that they don’t like/respect anyway (HELLO-HOOO???) and its resolutions are justification enough to start sth. that
a) kills more than 1000 US soldiers,
b) kills even more thousands of Iraqi soldiers and civilians and
c) starts a civil war with even more people dying per day than in the Saddam days???
Evoking Godwin’s law, this is like saying “So a minority of a country (=The Nazi Party, Hitler and his inner circle) who ignore treaties they signed from countries they don’t like or respect anyway are justification enough to start stuff that:
a) kills more than 600,000 US soldiers
b) kills millions of German soldiers and civilians (holocaust, anyone?
c) starts a World War…well, you get the drift
Your logic is flawed.
No: sorry. I cannot understand how people who approve this can dare to criticize/judge on other people’s disgusting & murderous attitude! So: WHERE’S THE POINT
Of course you can’t. In your world, it seem that no war would be justifiable. More on that later in the post
Re 7:
“Yes, i know: that it is a much better choice to have de facto nobody in power in Iraq and everyone killing everybody and everyone ,who likes to express his “political viewsâ€, commiting terror assaults: But hey, THEY ARE FINALLY FREE! Hiphip Hooray! What an improvement!!”
It is obvious that you hold your own freedoms for granted.
Yes, it is an improvement. A much wiser man than us, Thomas Jefferson said “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.” As the quote implies, this is a blood letting, a painful one at that. Freedom is not gained easily, nor is it cheap. More importantly, one shouldn’t cheapen freedom with such comments.
“Do you know Monty Python’s Flying Circus? There’s an episode with a poll on the street on the topic of “Peaceâ€, where one jerk says:â€I’d start war for peace:â€
He may be a jerk, but he is 100% correct. Again, quote a wise man (actually, paraphrasing as I can not remember the quote verbatim) “It is a terrible thing when one enjoys freedom while knowing others suffer without”. Of course, there is also my WWII example above that also applies.
Re 9:
“I don’t see any comment from you on the killing, victims or the nature of war. What do liberated people care about their freedom if they are dead or if they live in the permanent danger of getting killed- dead is dead! I’m a realist- you are pathetic:”
I’ll comment.
We (mankind) are tribalistic and border dependent. It is a natural part of our essence. This is even why music was created by us.
War is an extension of this. Because of our nature, without the prospect of war peace is never gained. This is demonstrated abundantly throughout history and is an accepted premise of most sociologist. It is abhorrent to be sure but it is a fact of life, of being human.
If you do not comprehend these facts, you are by no means a realist.
You wife has about as much to do with Indonesia as GWB and Iraq does:.
Peejz, believe it or not… my wife never intended to “liberate” or invade Indonesia! I didn’t ask her, but I think she gives a shit about Indonesia…
@TedInTheShed:
I really appreciate that you give some proper arguments- even if I don’t share the views expressed by them. It’s more fun, than someone’s statements of the kind: “You are stupid”.
Now let’s check those:
“Evoking Godwin’s law, … start stuff that:
a) kills more than 600,000 US soldiers
b) kills millions of German soldiers and civilians (holocaust, anyone?
c) starts a World War:well, you get the drift
Your logic is flawed.”
It is not.
-> Saddam committed genocide but not at the scale of Hitler’s Holocaust- the US attacked his country.
-> Stalin and Mao committed far more serious genocide to their people than Hitler- the US didn’t attack their countries.
You simply can’t justify the Iraq invasion (over and over again) with this stupid WWII comparison.
“In your world, it seem that no war would be justifiable.”
Correct! But it seems to be justifiable to 10% of the muslim Indonesians.. the only difference between the right wing Americans and them in this point is the justification!
” Freedom is not gained easily, nor is it cheap. More importantly, one shouldn’t cheapen freedom with such comments.”
It seems that there is quite an amount of people in Iraq (and Afghanistan) that don’t feel free by the US “liberation” or why do they keep on fighting? Who are you to dictate to other people how they have to understand freedom or democracy? This is a very oppressive act!
“We (mankind) are tribalistic and border dependent. It is a natural part of our essence. This is even why music was created by us.
War is an extension of this. Because of our nature, without the prospect of war peace is never gained. This is demonstrated abundantly throughout history and is an accepted premise of most sociologist. It is abhorrent to be sure but it is a fact of life, of being human.”
This remembers me a little bit of the looney murderer in “Saw”, who makes people suffer and threatens their lifes to make them feel the value of their life.
Your first line is right- we are still tribalistic and border dependent. BUT: War is the result of diverging interests and the conflicts that may grow from them- and of course the unability to solve conflicts in a civilized manner! I don’t long for peace as a negative reaction to war, but simply because I don’t have a problem with anybody and even if I had: my deepest human nature would tell me harming somebody or violently ending his life is absolutely WRONG!! And… please don’t assume the rest of mankind to think in your aggressive patterns- I don’t and most of the people i know don’t do either…
Re 18:
“I really appreciate that you give some proper arguments- even if I don’t share the views expressed by them. It’s more fun, than someone’s statements of the kind: “You are stupidâ€.
Indeed, ad hominem attacks serve little useful purpose. Before I go forward however, be careful if you wish to continue a discussion. In the next quoted passage you partake in such an attack. I know that yiou didn’t call me stupid per se, but did call the comparison stupid. I will go into further detail when I addrsess the next comment.
It is not.
-> Saddam committed genocide but not at the scale of Hitler’s Holocaust- the US attacked his country.
-> Stalin and Mao committed far more serious genocide to their people than Hitler- the US didn’t attack their countries.
You simply can’t justify the Iraq invasion (over and over again) with this stupid WWII comparison.
I guess my question for you then would be at what body count number is justified as “serious genocide”?
Mao’s “great leap foward” of 49 million?
Stalin’s killing feild that was part of the 13 million?
Hitler’s “final solution” that helped yeild 12 million?
How about pol Pot’s two million?
Does Darfur even count as “serious genocide”?
I would contend that any scale of genocide is “serious”. This isn’t a matter of semantics either. Hussein’s guestimated 300,000-1 million is no better and the comparison is by no means “stupid”. I am indignant at such a comment.
Correct! But it seems to be justifiable to 10% of the muslim Indonesians.. the only difference between the right wing Americans and them in this point is the justification!
I read in another post where you said you are a pacifist. This certainly explains plenty. While a noble concept, like Communism and Democracy it is an impractical utopian concept whose pratice may work on an individual basis but has no place in the social tenements of mankind. The great writer and social consciousness George Orwell said it best” ‘Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, ‘he that is not with me is against me.’
It seems that there is quite an amount of people in Iraq (and Afghanistan) that don’t feel free by the US “liberation”or why do they keep on fighting? Who are you to dictate to other people how they have to understand freedom or democracy? This is a very oppressive act!
There is a small minority of people fighting- an estimated 20,000-30,000 people, thus your anology is again flawed. There are plenty of people who do appreciate the freedoms they have gained, and while we can both find quotes from individuals who support both of our stances I would submoit that such actions woll do little to justify each of our stances.
That said, I would state that even if you account that the estimated 17-22% of said figure it would seem that you are saying that pacifism would justify the minority raising up once again and supressing the majority.
As this is it’s very definition, I would submit that THIS is the truly oppessive act! Freedom is not something that is “understood”, it is a concept inalienable and inately instilled.
Your first line is right- we are still tribalistic and border dependent. BUT: War is the result of diverging interests and the conflicts that may grow from them- and of course the unability to solve conflicts in a civilized manner! I don’t long for peace as a negative reaction to war, but simply because I don’t have a problem with anybody and even if I had: my deepest human nature would tell me harming somebody or violently ending his life is absolutely WRONG!! And: please don’t assume the rest of mankind to think in your aggressive patterns- I don’t and most of the people i know don’t do either:
I wanted to let you know I am not ignoring this statement, but even as misguided that it is I have ran out of time. I will breifly address it.
I will say that peace is NOT a negative reaction to war. Peace is the positive reaction to it;. I would state that your “deepest human nature” may work on an individual basis as I said above, but is not everyones. There will always be people like Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler, Hussein, Mussolni and bin Laden as well as much less known people who do oppress. Their “deepest human nature” is not as yours. There will always be such people aand as such your “deepest human nature” only leads to their victory. This is why that killing, such as has happened in WWII and the comparable current conflict, is ineed justiable.
18-Peejz, believe it or not: my wife never intended to “liberate”or invade Indonesia! I didn’t ask her, but I think she gives a shit about Indonesia: And neither did George Bush.
Mattias,
Arguing with a fool only wastes bandwidth. You have the freedom to be a fool, speak and act like a fool, and to die like a fool when the Islamofascists come to town and set off suicide bombs.
You are with out foundation and your statements taken to their logical end lead to more war and death, only you ate too stupid to see it.
Folks,
this is really stressing my time (for heaven sake I work during the other people’s lunchbreak)…
@Peejz: And neither did George Bush.
I might think, that there are one or two people in the world who don’t share your view in this point…
@PCD: You have the freedom to be a fool, speak and act like a fool
Just enter “bush fool” in Google and take some time to review the ~8.350.000 entries
@Ted:
The intention of my posts here was not to discuss the sense or nonsense of pacifism, but rather the nature of people approving war (for what reason ever). It was one of my countrymen named Clausewitz who said “War is merely a continuation of politics”.
10% of the muslim Indonesians approve something that they call a “holy war” and a probably larger amount of people in the US approved the military action in Iraq (for a in their mind also good or really justified reason).
All I have in common with Clausewitz is the country… regarding his views he appears to be much more a republican American… or somebody from Indonesia…
Mattias,
Like you, most liberals I know are as shallow as the thickness of your average loose leaf paper page. They do not reason, they scream their emotions and when confonted with facts and reason, they scream their emotional nonsense even louder. You are nothing different. All you did here was scream louder.
right on shiloh you called it your my pal in 20 days our side will win then our side will be in charge then these neocons wont have anything to say they will be screaming because we won
then in 2008 we take the rest hey shiloh do you like hillary better or john kerry the hero for prez in 2008 i cant decide they are both so awesome
im glad were on the same side shiloh do you listen to air america every day al franken sure is kewl
Hey, shitoh, can I drive you to the mental health facility when the Dems fail to take either half of Congress?
shitoh, you are the one always wrong. Besides your butt buddy, Clinton, never had a majority of the popular vote either!
Uh, Bush had a Majority of the popular vote in 2004. Just proving you wrong again.
Also, fool, it is by vote of the Electoral College that a President is elected, not popular vote. You sure don’t know your Constitution, fool.
Also, it was 2 Democrats, Bob Beckel and Bob Mulholland who tried blackmailing the Electoral College Electors into voting for Gore. Again, Democrat corruption.
yeah right on shiloh yer way kewl just like my pal knipple i knew you loved air america i just knew it hey your right republicans are crooks and democrats are not they have to prove it if they want to go after democrats but they cant prove anything but no proof needed aganst republicans cause we know there bad dont we
32, hypocrite shitoh, Beckel got thrown off CNN for his blackmailing attempt. Mulholland is the California Party’s Donald Segretti multiplied. Mulholland doesn’t care what he has to do to keep Democrats in office. If he’d been in Milwaukee, he’d have been leading Rep. Gwen Moore’s son’s group of tire slashers. Moore’s son was convicted, Shitoh.
Oh, Shitoh, name DeLay’s conviction. You can’t do it hypocrite.
34, go ahead and run and hide shitoh. There’s no conviction of DeLay for you to cite. Hypocrite! Due Process is only an invective for you to hurl, you 5th columnist. Keep attacking America frim the inside with your false charges and factoids, creep.
35, shitoh, how low can you go? Did you cheer page molester Gerry Studds? Many of the Democrats who cheered him are now Democrat leaders in the House. Shouldn’t they have to resign? Or can we convict you of having a partisan double standard? Remember you said you weren’t partisan when you were campaigning for Kerry here.
What were Bush’s daughters convicted of?
shitoh, you are just as arrogant as your role model, Gerry Studds. You are being held accountable and all you can do is molest a goat.
Well dumbass, it wasn’t Barbara, it was Jenna. As usual, you can’t keep a story straight. Too ignorant to realize that you have no problem saying that Nixon is guilty, but when faced with Teddy you say he is not a murderer..hypocritical and ignorant..what is one to expect from a troll that is proud to have voted for McGovern?
Peejz, careful! To call shitoh a troll is a slur on trolls all over the Internet.
shiloh voted for McGovern?
explains a lot…
40- Peejz.
If Shiloh is a troll, why is he/she aloowed to post here?
Shiloh,
I find it amazing that whenever you enter a thread with a legitimate discussion, it seems to fall apart. You have no logical discourse and have become no better than those you despise. You are nothing more than a petty intestigator at this point..
And now, back to the foray at hand.
Re 22:
The intention of my posts here was not to discuss the sense or nonsense of pacifism, but rather the nature of people approving war (for what reason ever). It was one of my countrymen named Clausewitz who said “War is merely a continuation of politicsâ€.
The intention of my posts were to address the falacies in your posts, plain and simple. While doing so, I feel I was able to dig down to the core of the difference in our respectful opinions, while rooting out the falacy in your arguements. You are entitled to build your opinion on any foundation you wish just like any one else, however an opinion based on ignorance or falsehoods are no more valid than the foundation on which that opinion is built.
10% of the muslim Indonesians approve something that they call a “holy war”and a probably larger amount of people in the US approved the military action in Iraq (for a in their mind also good or really justified reason).
Yes, and that comparision is specious at best. It is like saying 70% of Germans approved of the invasion of Poland, Russia, et, al. and probably a larger amount of people in the US approved of military action again Germany.
All I have in common with Clausewitz is the country: regarding his views he appears to be much more a republican American: or somebody from Indonesia:
I don’t know him from jack.
If Shiloh is a troll, why is he/she aloowed to post here? I wasn’t aware that trolls couldn’t post….
44.
I never said that they couldn’t post, I asked why they were alllowed to?
BTW, I sent in some info from Fox and WND in a book that links Cindy Sheehan as being paid by the Kerry Presidential Campaign.
Have fun with that.