Charlie Rangel is calling for the draft, yet again. The last time he did this, the GOP brought it to the floor for a vote, where it failed, 402-2. Rangel voted NAY.
“I don’t see how anyone can support the war and not support the draft. I think to do so is hypocritical,” he said.
Others blogging:
The Wood Shed
Wizbang
Rep. Rangel Will Seek to Reinstate Draft – The Liberty Lounge Political Forums
Bill’s Bites
Sister Toldjah
NoisyRoom.net » Blog Archive » Rangel again calls for reinstituting the draft
Perri Nelson’s Website
Hypcritical says Rangel?
Didn’t he support Clinton cutting the military by 800,000, including civilians needed to support the military personel?
That’s hypocritical, if you ask me.
Thanks for the tip. I linked to you!:smile:
In 03′, Rangel said he was doing this because he could, and not because we needed it. Either he needs to vote for what he suggests or he needs to shut up!
“Thanks for the tip. I linked to you!”
I feel honored- thank you Peejz for linking to my humble little page.
Isn’t it funny that the very party that undermined our efforts in Vietnam, and condemned millions to die at the hands of the communists, are now going against the volunteer military by forced conscription? There is no greater way to increase casualties in any war than to forcibly conscribe people to fight in it. Unless people believe in the cause for which they are fighting, they are far less likely to become proficient in the skills necessary to do so. Their attitude is also detrimental to morale. Of course what have the Democrats done lately that hasn’t been detrimental to morale?
Me thinks chaucky rangle needs to be sent to the mental institution for the politicly nuts crazy and rediculous:razz:
Oh my God. Can I just say what an idiot Representative Rangel is? I listened to his comments today and it made me remember why I can never be a Democrat.
I ask all of you Republicans to get your party back to the pragmatic, realistic, fiscally conservative, effective party it used to be so that America is not subject to idiot Democrats.
President Reagan. God bless that man. President Bush is no President Reagan.
“President Reagan. God bless that man. President Bush is no President Reagan.”
Amen to that Zelda. This country..no this world…needs another man like Reagan fpr President.
I assume that the whole call for the draft is for rhetorical effect. Essentially it’s a way of saying that since the great majority of casualties are suffered by those from the lower or lower-middle class (because folks from these classes are most likely to enlist in the first place), the wealthy politicians who actually decide to go to war should face the prospect of their own children dying.
The argument, as I see it:
If little Johnny (or, God forbid, Jenny) will have to give up that scholarship to Yale to dodge bullets in the desert, maybe Johnny’s senator daddy (and the lobbyist who owns Johnny’s senator daddy) will rethink his support for the war.
Solarc,
Just stuff your liberal hate and condescension. I have met more military officeers and enlisted that are way smarter and educated than you are. The military is only lower and middle class because that is what tha pay scale is.
Let me remind you that under a DEMOCRAT run Congress the enlisted were paid so poorly that many were on welfare. That is your condesension in action.
No, put Rangel in Baghdad without bodyguards and with the announcement that no one will pay a ransom for him. We’ll see if his cut and run “solution” actually will bring peace to Iraq.
Oh, the military is all volunteer now. You know, they sign up of their own free will. Just like Pat Tillman and his brother. Just like JFK did, and George H. Wl Bush did, as well as the President.
Now tell me how you have other priorities.
God, you’re a terrible writer. I’m not convinced that you’re the person to judge who’s “way smarter and educated” than anyone.
Nevertheless…
At issue isn’t the pay in the military, it’s the social strata from which the enlistees are drawn. The point is that the rich should also carry the burden. Things have changed since the days of Bush I and his idiot son, and they’ve changed even more since the days of Kennedy.
The military is indeed completely volunteer (though “stop-loss” has changed the picture a bit). Nonetheless, the military does nearly all of its recruiting (at least, its recruiting for cannon-fodder) in poor neighborhoods and at poor schools. I can provide you with some statistics on this though I doubt that you’d be interested. “Facts” are just another name for “liberal hate,” right?
The bottom line is that leaders from one class make life and death decisions about another.
10, Your arrogance drips from every word you write. You propaganda would be better served if you stuck it up your …! All your petulantly want is to punish Bush by having his kids killed. That is your bottom line. This crap about having the rich serve is just camoflage for your real agenda.
You hate Bush for beating you people at the polls twice. You also denigrate the military in an effort to make yourself better than they. It isn’t working. You are just a loser trying to justify your miserable and worthless existance by stating ther others are inferior to you.
Your efforts failed. You are as big a failure as shitto.
Go back to San Francisco and protect yourself with disarmed police. I will laugh heartily when you get attacked and plead for help.
PCD,
You haven’t responded to the substance of my comments.
Ergo, you are a fucktard.
Get offline and read a book.
12, shitto, your shrink is waiting for you. You are late for your appointment.
13, listen, bozo, I addressed your real points and you have no rejoinder, nor a defense. You have been exposed for what you are, a George Soros Kool-aid drinker. Go play on Daily Kos with the other juvenile delinquents.
PCD,
You responded to my statement that the military is made up of the underclass by saying that I secretly want Bush’s kids dead. Whether or not that’s true (and it isn’t–I’d much rather see them on “Girls Gone Wild” than in bodybags), it doesn’t constitute a response. If you can’t understand the difference, than you’re an even bigger moron than I thought.
Why don’t you go back to sniffing glue and molesting the retarded kids from the neighborhood
Solarc,
“Why don’t you go back to sniffing glue and molesting the retarded kids from the neighborhood ”
Is that your usual occupation when you aren’t making a fool of yourself on the internet?
You seem to think that you are superior to everyone. You aren’t. You can’t hack people getting back in your face and letting you have it.
You are just another dilitante who can’t do anything other than pontificate on what you know not of.
If Rangel should get his draft, I pray you are the first one drafted and shot for desertion.
You are just another dilitante who can’t do anything other than pontificate on what you know not of.
Way to take on the issues douchebag.
Is it a good thing that the army is made up of the underclass? Do you think you could get your finger out of that kid long enough to type an answer to that one? Do ya, boy? Do ya?
I have to go out with some of my grown-up friends. Maybe I’ll check back later.
18, listen, creep, I know you had to go to your NAMBLA meeting, but the Armed forces are not made up of the under classes. I’d like you to say that to Col. Werner Hellmer’s face. Hellmer was the Marine JAG who prosecuted and got a conviction of desertion for Bobby Garwood, noted Viet Nam deserter.
Sol, it is good for you to get out of your parents’ basement once in a while, even if it is to score more drugs.
The Heritage Foundation did a study on the question of US Army enlistee demographics.
Their conclusion: “This evidence directly contradicts Representative Rangel’s claim that underÂprivileged Americans are the source of military manpower and that the privileged are underrepresented.”
Read their report for yourself. It puts Rangel’s blather into the toilet, where it belongs.
Thanks Robert- I’ve been looking for that for a while.
the stench of testosterone in here is enough to make “Ahnold” gag.
I do not accept the findings of any known right-wing studies. Heritage is funded by the vast Right-wing conspiracy. I believe Rep. Rangel; Solarc is right.
Rep. Rangel has been around far longer, and knows much more about the situation than any of the armchair warmongers.
We’ve known since the Vietnam war that it was the poor, the minorities that populated the military. And of course disproportionately suffer the casualties. We know this; it is known in Academia, everyone just knows it to be the case. That’s just the way it is.
TedintheShed…
“President Reagan. God bless that man. President Bush is no President Reagan.”
“Amen to that Zelda. This country..no this world:needs another man like Reagan for President.”
President Reagan removed our troops from Lebanon after a deadly terrorist attack. Perhaps he is to blame for 9-11????? Yet he still managed to defeat Communism. He made a strategic retreat from terrorists and is still probably the best President of out lifetimes. Go figure.
President Bush is no President Reagan.
“President Reagan removed our troops from Lebanon after a deadly terrorist attack. Perhaps he is to blame for 9-11?????”
I’ve heard that assertion a couple of times, and I sure would like someone to make the point.
I don’t see it.
Yet he still managed to defeat Communism.
For the most part- he wasn’t singley responsible for it, but certainly was one of the key players and was the closer.
He made a strategic retreat from terrorists and is still probably the best President of out lifetimes. Go figure.
That is a specious argument. many facts have changed in the last 20 years.
The facts are that the members of Congress, as a whole, have a higher percentage of offspring serving in the military than the populace as a whole. The military has a higher high school graduation rate than the general populace by a significant number. Why? Because they don’t take high school drop outs anymore. They haven’t in years. If you don’t have a diploma or a GED, you simply do not get in. Even the Army that has the lowest standards of the bunch will not allow people without high school diplomas in. Hell there were questions raised when I recently tried to reenlist as to why I didn’t have a high school diploma or a GED, and I had been an OFFICER. The answer was that I went to college a year early and have a BA from a major university. When I was in ROTC in college, they never asked about a high school diploma because I was a college sophomore before I even spoke to anyone at the ROTC department.
You can argue all that you want that Rangel is right. He isn’t. A draft will do nothing but increase the body count. The soldiers don’t want draftees. Want to see the military take a turn for the worst, start drafting people. They don’t accept druggies, they don’t accept serious delinquents, they don’t accept criminals. With a draft, they’d be forced to accept all of the above.
Take a look at where the recruiting centers are located. Take a look at which high schools the recruiters attend. The preferred areas are low-income.
Nobody said that the troops are stupid and people on this blog should stop assuming that when anyone says that the troops are from the underclass this means that they’re morons.
What’s at issue is economic strata, not relative intelligence.
See post 20. Duh…
28.
The heritage foundation? Its stated mission is to formulate and promote conservative public policies based on the principles of “free enterprise, limited government, individual freedom, traditional American values, and a strong national defense.”
At least find me a source that pretends to be non-biased.
On the subject of recruiting tactics:
Channel 11 News in Houston revealed that a local Army recruiter was caught on tape, as he left a message threatening a young man
with arrest if he didn’t come into the recruiting station.
Sgt. Thomas Kelt left this message on that young man’s cell phone:
“Hey Chris, this is Sgt. Kelt with the Army man. I think we got disconnected. Okay, I know you were on your cell probably and just had a bad connection or something like that. I know you didn’t hang up on me. Anyway, by federal law you got an appointment with me at 2 o’clock this afternoon at Greenspoint Mall, okay? That’s the Greenspoint Mall Army Recruiting Station at 2 o’clock. You fail to appear and we’ll have a warrant. Okay? So give me a call back.”
To listen:
http://www.khou.com/images/0505/voicemail.wav
“Hey Chris, this is Sgt. Kelt with the Army man. I think we got disconnected. Okay, I know you were on your cell probably and just had a bad connection or something like that. I know you didn’t hang up on me. Anyway, by federal law you got an appointment with me at 2 o’clock this afternoon at Greenspoint Mall, okay? That’s the Greenspoint Mall Army Recruiting Station at 2 o’clock. You fail to appear and we’ll have a warrant. Okay? So give me a call back.â€
The following link includes statistics on “The Mathematics of the Military and Military Recruitment.” It seems pertinent to the discussion.
http://www.radicalmath.org/main.php?id=military
Regardless, I’m sure that we’ve all had some experience with this topic. I graduated HS right around the time that Gulf War Pt.1 was taking off. I went to a HS in a poor rural area in the midwest and it was constantly crawling with recruiters. I didn’t join, though a lot of my friends did, and I ended up receiving a scholarship from a fairly prestigious school in the East. I assumed that all of the students at my university–most of whom were wealthy and had attended private schools or public schools in rich neighborhoods–would have had the same experiences. Not only had they not experienced what I had, the whole process was completely foreign to them. A couple of them said that they thought that it was “probably illegal” (obviously, it’s not). The only student who shared my experience was, big surprise, a black kid who had grown up in Queens.
Take a look at where the recruiting centers are located. Take a look at which high schools the recruiters attend. The preferred areas are low-income. I live in a wealthy suburb and the recruiters go to all the schools…They can and do recruit at public schools.
What is the point you are trying to make Solar? You are aware of the GI Bill aren’t you? This country would not have seen the prosperity it did after WWII if not for that wonderful little piece of legislation that affords people to better themselves.
Are you angry that that there are poor people that take advantage of an opportunity in which they work for the benefit?
right on Solarc and knippel. I mean solarc your right on target heritage is a right wing thing you cant trust the numbers in that report look at all the research they did but it doesnt mean anything i know your right you know more than heritage does and your not biased i just know it beacsue your a kewl dood maybe i can be your pal too im knippels pal already because hes a kewl dood too putting these right wingers in their place
wow man like solarc you graduated from high school late early 90s you know a lot man you got more expeirence than any of these right wingers here you know it all man i bet your almost as smart as knippel
33
My point was that those who decide to go to war make their decision without the fear that their loved ones might have to pay the ultimate price.
That was it.
I support the GI Bill. It’s an excellent reminder of how sucessful government programs can be.
35- and you failed to make the point. There are members of the Senate, Congress, and Pentagon, that have kids in the military. Our military is volunteer, made of of brave men and women that put country before self.
Military recruiters know that their lifeblood is the underprivileged.
The heritage foundation just cooked the NPPs numbers.
Here’s the NPP response: http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=183&Itemid=61
I’m sure you’ll want to link to it so the readers of this blog can thoughtfully consider both arguments. Or…maybe you’ll just pretend that the always unbiased heritage foundation had the last word and that those poor dumb lefties just couldn’t come up with a response.
Two more things (one topical, one general):
1) How many members of “the Senate, Congress, and Pentagon” (isn’t the senate part of congress?) have children who are ground troops stationed in Iraq?
2) What’s your take on the whole question of being fair and balanced? Would you ever consider linking to, e.g., NPP’s report alongside the Heritage Foundation? Or Chomsky next to Horowitz? Or should anything that might hurt the right-wing cause be suppressed? I know that it sounds like I’m mocking, but this is a legitimate question.
Heritage did the study. The numbers came from the Census, not NPP. NPP just disagrees with Heritage. Entirely predictable that when faced with an actual study that counters your assertion, you’d retreat, regroup, then come back with an attack on the source. It’s been done here for years.
Sorry, but you’ve lost this argument. Maybe you should just accept it and move on…
shiloh did you just make all that up? what would you know about any of that? Did you get it from Michael Moore?
1) How many members of “the Senate, Congress, and Pentagon”(isn’t the senate part of congress?) have children who are ground troops stationed in Iraq?
I know of two Ohio Congressmen that have served in Iraq themselves (one Democrat, one Reoublican). I find the whole “rich v. poor” arguement to be silly myself.
39, 40
Robert,
What we have is one set of data and two sets of interpretations. NPP published the first study; the heritage foundation freaked out and got something together that was supposed to contradict the NPP stance; then the NPP responded.
By the way, you don’t need Michael Moore for the “Champagne Unit” comment. Why, Robert, are you so afraid of anything that threatens your incredibly flimsy and ill thought out viewpoint.
41.
I’m still a little foggy on what exactly it means to have “served in Iraq” when we’re referring to politicians. Is this the same thing as when Bush fought bravely in Vietnam? A “military career” certainly helps one to become a politician, but politicians with actual military careers (e.g., Kerry and McCain) are becoming fewer and fewer. Instead, we have Bush prancing around in a flight suit with a sock shoved down his pants.
Who said Bush fought in Vietnam? He served in the National Guard. Contrary to Rather’s attempt to paint the picture differently, he served.
As for the sock comment..wrong again..Al Gore was the one that was Air Brushed on the cover of Rolling Stone..how said that they felt they need to improvie that!
Solarc (and others)
There are few times in history when the poor(er) were not the ones doing most the fighting (Middle Ages in Europe). Your point is that the US military in 2006 is similar to militaries throughout history? Well done.
Get off your keyboard and go help someone in your community.
Hey Tex,
You seem to be a minority voice on this site. You accept that we have an army of the poor, but you don’t think that there’s anything wrong with it.
If your argument reduces to “so what,” how about the fact that it seems exploitive for those in power (and I really mean the corporations rather than the govt, but the govt too) to gain from the suffering of the underclasses.
Is the European Middle Ages really a good model for the way that things ought to be?
43,
Who said Bush fought in Vietnam? He served in the National Guard. Contrary to Rather’s attempt to paint the picture differently, he served.
In the “Champagne unit” with one year unaccounted for. See Shiloh’s post.
As for the sock comment..wrong again..Al Gore was the one that was Air Brushed on the cover of Rolling Stone..how said that they felt they need to improvie that!
Oh, I thought that it was Bush on the deck of an aircraft carrier prancing around like a fairy with a sock in his jock shouting “mission accomplished.” It was actually Gore? How silly of me.
hey solarc like wow man yer way kewl too like my pals knippel and eben yer as smart as they are hey im glad were on the same side you know do you like michael moore too i thought so yeah hes my idol i just knew you liked him anyway glad yer on our side solarc yer way kewl dood
In the “Champagne unit”with one year unaccounted for. See Shiloh’s post There is no need to see shiloh’s post. As I said, Contrary to Rather’s attempt to paint the picture differently, he served. He was discharged honorably..The paperwork has been released..it just didn’t jive with what some wanted it to say. He served his country..period..Was it any less honorable than Senator Gore getting his son a desk job and a babysitter when Jr. served in Vietnam?
45- by that reasoning, we should cut off all support to lower class as it is now being used as an expoitive tool to garner political support. No more affirmative action as it seems exploitive for those in power….
48,
As far as Gore goes, are you referring to the urban legend about the CCR song? Wasn’t that debunked on Snopes?
Anyway, Bush was a patriot. Not like Gore, or Kerry, or McCain, right? Man, that was really lucky of Bush to have ended up—-with no help from Daddy—-in such a cool platoon. If I’d volunteered during ‘Nam, would I have been able to serve with “Democratic Governor John Connally, Democratic Senator and future Vice-Presidential nominee Lloyd Bentsen, and Republican Senator John Tower, as well as seven members of the Dallas Cowboys professional football club, and a man named James R. Bath, who would become a longtime friend of Bush’s”?
He basically served in a fraternity. Are you honestly claiming that Daddy didn’t pull strings for him?
The point isn’t Gore bad/Bush good or the reverse. Bush obviously used his social position to get himself a cushy spot during the war. Maybe Gore did, too (though I don’t remember hearing about him “serving” alongside movie stars or pro athletes).
I agree with most of what Steiger wrote, but I don’t think that the left does itself any good defending rich politicians.
46- Oh, I thought that it was Bush on the deck of an aircraft carrier prancing around like a fairy with a sock in his jock shouting “mission accomplished.”It was actually Gore? How silly of me. GWB was on the Air Craft Carrier and he thanked the troops present, and told them that their mission was accomplished, they were going home..there was no sock, never alluded to either. But Gore on the otherhand..Priceless!