Cross debate costs College of William and Mary $12 million donation
WILLIAMSBURG, Virginia (AP) — A longtime donor to the College of William and Mary is withholding a $12 million pledge because of the decision to remove of a cross from a campus chapel, the school said.
The donor, who was not identified, changed his mind after school President Gene Nichol decided in October that the cross should be stored in a sacristy to make the chapel welcoming to students of all faiths, Nichol spokesman Mike Connolly said.
The loss of the funds “represents a serious setback to the college,” Nichol wrote in an e-mailed statement Tuesday. “While I know it is intended to make a policy statement, ultimately it only hurts our students.”
Advocates of keeping the cross in Wren Chapel pointed to the school’s founding 300 years ago as an institution of the Anglican Church. The cross, they argued, should be displayed not only as a symbol of faith but as an acknowledgment of history and tradition.
I guess Nichols should have thought of the consequences of his decision to remove the cross. He is the one hurting the students, by stripping the school of an important piece of its’ history. Could the cross have not stayed and a plaque be mounted explaining the relevance?
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March 1, 2007 - 11:32 PM on March 1st, 2007
That what they get when their so damn PC and leaning over backwards for the islamic radicals i say do the same to Los Angeles:mad:
March 2, 2007 - 08:33 AM on March 2nd, 2007
Good! Now if it starts costing them money, perhaps these institutions will stop being so politically correct.
March 2, 2007 - 09:21 AM on March 2nd, 2007
That is a big chunk of change to any school. Nichol is obviously not a good steward of the funds or he would be aware that some people give for the upkeep of what is there while others give for what the school is lacking..
March 2, 2007 - 09:31 AM on March 2nd, 2007
At the time of the schools founding, the Anglican Church did not use the cross in their houses of worship. The cross in the chapel has not been there from the founding, but just since the 1930s. So the “300 years” history is BS.
Further, the cross isn’t being discarded as it will be put in place during appropriate services.
Maybe this Jesus-freak donor should find a private, instead of public, school which reflects his values.
March 2, 2007 - 10:10 AM on March 2nd, 2007
4- Actually TT, you are wrong about the cross:
1931 – After being renovated, Burton Parish Church gave its 2-foot tall gold altar cross for display behind the Wren Chapel altar and purchased a new cross for the Church. The older cross was on permanent display in the Wren Chapel until this year.
History of the cross:
The Cross has been displayed at all times, except when removed by request.
Should they also erase the history of the school? This is nothing more that political correctness..The schools itself has a fascinating history and it should be embraced and appreciated by the students..
And where did you get that the alumni was a Jesus freak? He gave to his alma mater.
I read this and had to chuckle: Nichol: Wren Chapel must serve all
Dear Jim:
I had an interesting experience Thursday. A Jewish family from Richmond made an appointment with me as the son is trying to decide between UVA and W&M. Since my office is in the Wren, I showed them around and for the first time in 19 years as Director of Judaic Studies, a Jewish family did not ask me to explain the presence of the cross in a non-denominational chapel at a public college.
I do not know about every case, but from the letters I have received over these nearly two decades following my tour, it is certain that a great many of the Virginia Jewish families that have come and asked about the cross have decided to send their children elsewhere.
Jon Stewart aka Jonathan Stuart Leibowitz, attended the College of William and Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, majoring in psychology, graduating in 1984!
March 2, 2007 - 08:33 PM on March 2nd, 2007
The school should get its donations from elsewhere.
March 2, 2007 - 09:24 PM on March 2nd, 2007
$12 million dollar donations are far and few between..the school should get a new president..
March 3, 2007 - 11:23 PM on March 3rd, 2007
The University isn’t obligated to do shit for this man, regardless of how much he has given them.
Maybe the university could move the goddamned cross behind some shed somewhere on campus.
Maybe the president is thinking long term for the college, in that overt religious symbols might turn off prospective students.
I say ditch it.
Get new donors.
March 3, 2007 - 11:39 PM on March 3rd, 2007
S.F Liberals with their brain the size of a walnut must think that the world is still flat and is balanced on the back of a turtle that walks slowly around the sun and the star are little lamps lit by the sky people at night and blown out in the daytime and must believe we came from chimps:razz:
March 3, 2007 - 11:51 PM on March 3rd, 2007
“…and must believe we came from chimps”
I certainly don’t believe “we came from chimps”, but I do believe them to be our “cousins”, having long ago seperated from our ancestral line.
(!)
March 4, 2007 - 12:13 AM on March 4th, 2007
I’d like to see them put the cross prominently displayed right in front, where it will torment every passing Liberal. Kind of like how Dracula can’t look at the cross…
March 4, 2007 - 12:20 AM on March 4th, 2007
Keep that crap from being featured prominently in public institutions and schools.
March 4, 2007 - 03:01 AM on March 4th, 2007
So let me get this straight…
They remove a cross…from a Chapel?
“Maybe the president is thinking long term for the college, in that overt religious symbols might turn off prospective students.”
That is completely impossible. Anyone going to W&M would relaize it was founded by an Anglican Church. Removimg the Wren Cross is removing a vital part of the college’s history history.
They may as well change the name from “William and Mary” to “Bob and Tom”.
“Keep that crap from being featured prominently in public institutions and schools.”
Each individual community should have the right to choose. That is one of the rights that instituti0ons such as the ACLU has removed from America’s citizens.
March 4, 2007 - 04:15 AM on March 4th, 2007
Anyone going to W&M would relaize it was founded by an Anglican Church. Removimg the Wren Cross is removing a vital part of the college’s history history.
Oberlin, now certainly one of the most liberal colleges in the country, was founded by a real fire and brimstone Presbyterian minister. Over the years, it fully secularized. It’s now by far the most prestigious college in Ohio (Kenyon, I think, is a distant second). No one’s talking about a loss of vital history there. Times change (thankfully).
My sense is that, insofar as Christian groups have supported so many backward, anti-intellectual positions, and done so so publicly, the presence of the cross would probably hurt the school’s ability to attract the top stundets. The Christian chapel at Cornell (for example) went multi-faith years ago and everyone still agrees that it was a good move. Most good colleges are simply too international to believe that their primary clientele is made up of American Christians. Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, etc. make up a good portion of the student body at all of the top institutions.
As of Dec. 31, 2006, W&M had raised $502.7 million for the year. 12 million isn’t a drop in the bucket, but it’s not going to break the back of the school either. A few moves up or down on the US News & World Report list can easily be worth more than 12 million.
Each individual community should have the right to choose.
It looks like they did.
March 4, 2007 - 12:46 PM on March 4th, 2007
“It’s now by far the most prestigious college in Ohio (Kenyon, I think, is a distant second)”
I live in Ohio, born and raised. I know this not to be the case. Oberlin is barely raised. Ohio Wesleyan is far and above considered the most prestigious . If a person can not gain admission to an Ivy League School, this is one of the first colleges they turn to. Then, there are the obvious large colleges, such as OSU, U of O, Ohio Morthern…the list goes on.
Oberlin is somewhat known for their music, but Capital University is considered a better choice.
“It looks like they did.”
To what community are you referrring to? If you are talking aboiut W&M per se then you are not talking about a decision made by a community. It was a decision of a few small minded folks. The display of a historically significant icon to the college in no way denotes them as not being “multi-denomiational”.
It is only such bigotry as yours that see it that way.
“My sense is that, insofar as Christian groups have supported so many backward, anti-intellectual positions…”
Yeah- they are a lot like science in that manner. You know, when they supported the celestial bodies revolving around the earth, the flat earth theory, etc.
March 4, 2007 - 01:27 PM on March 4th, 2007
“My sense is that, insofar as Christian groups have supported so many backward, anti-intellectual positions, and done so so publicly, the presence of the cross would probably hurt the school’s ability to attract the top stundets.”
Exactly.
It’s just bad for business for a secular college to come across as religious.
Scares people away.
Get the moeny from elsewhere. This donor can give to a christian college, if they want.
say: thank you, goodbye!
March 5, 2007 - 04:49 AM on March 5th, 2007
15. I live in Ohio, born and raised. I know this not to be the case. Oberlin is barely raised. Ohio Wesleyan is far and above considered the most prestigious .
I’m from Ohio, too, Ted. You’ve either confused Ohio Wesleyan with Wesleyan (in CT) or you just don’t know anything about colleges. In the most recent USN&WR rankings, among all liberal arts colleges, Oberlin is ranked 22 (first of all Ohio schools), Kenyon is ranked 32 and Ohio Wesleyan is ranked 95. The only thing that’s keeping Oberlin out of the top ten is the time it takes students to finish (Oberlin also has one of the top five musical conservatories in the country; consequently, they offer a 5 year program for double [conservative and college] degree students that skews their completion statistics a bit). Oberlin is also number one among all Ohio schools in terms of average test schores, high school GPA of entering students, % of students going on to advanced degrees (including placement in medical schools and law schools), and general selectivity. As far as the state schools in Ohio go, OSU is certainly large and it offers a lot of majors, but it’s also ridiculously unselective (last I checked, they were accepting students with ACT scores in the high teens and 2.0 GPAs–just slightly less selective than BGSU and UT), which keeps it well below most of the better state schools in the US. Capital is an OK place for non-traditional students looking to pick up a masters, but it’s not even ranked in the top 100 among universities. The only school that comes close to matching Oberlin’s numbers is CWR (ranked well-above OSU, OU, and Miami), which remains one of the best hard science schools in the US, but doesn’t offer a whole lot else besides the sciences. Where are you getting your information from? I’m taking mine from USN&WR as well as the guide to colleges I still have sitting around.
To what community are you referrring to? If you are talking aboiut W&M per se then you are not talking about a decision made by a community. It was a decision of a few small minded folks. The display of a historically significant icon to the college in no way denotes them as not being “multi-denomiationalâ€.
Who do you see as the “community” of W&M? The students? Their parents? The trustees? If the president is not speaking for them, have they resisted in anyway? The president made a judgment call and, as far as I can tell, the only people freaking out and pointing fingers are right-wing bloggers who pretend to beleive that a cross (which will still be present during services) is “multi-denominational.”
March 5, 2007 - 10:29 PM on March 5th, 2007
I’m sorry, but your wrong. It isn’t Oberlin College, but Otterbein (ranked 7th). Neither Wesleyn or Oberlin made the top 50, but I suspect for OWU it is because of the exhorbantly high tuition as it was ranked #2 in the 80’s of all Schools in Ohio.
BTW, on the nationwide rank, OSU beat them both coming in at 57.
ONU is ranked highest at 5 (Top universities in the Midwest):
1 St. Mary’s College(IN)
1 Calvin College(MI)
3 Taylor University(IN)
4 St. Norbert College(WI)
5 Ohio Northern University
6 Wartburg College(IA)
7 Otterbein College(OH)
8 Simpson College(IA)
9 Elmhurst College(IL)
10 Central College(IA)
11 Dordt College(IA)
12 Augustana College(SD)
12 Mount Union College(OH)
14 Cedarville University(OH)
14 Illinois College
16 Huntington University(IN)
17 Marietta College(OH)
18 Buena Vista University(IA)
18 Millikin University(IL)
20 Manchester College(IN)
20 Wisconsin Lutheran College
20 Northwestern College(IA)
23 McKendree College(IL)
24 Franklin College(IN)
25 Northland College(WI)
25 Loras College(IA)
25 Northwestern College(MN)
28 Carroll College(WI)
29 College of the Ozarks(MO)
29 Bethel College(KS)
31 Alverno College(WI)
31 Clarke College(IA)
33 Mount Mercy College(IA)
34 Bluffton University(OH)
35 Trinity Christian College(IL)
35 Columbia College(MO)
35 Southwestern College(KS)
38 St. Joseph’s College(IN)
38 Wilmington College(OH)
38 Bethel College(IN) 1
41 St. Mary – of – the – Woods College(IN)
42 Eureka College(IL)
42 Morningside College(IA)
44 Judson College(IL)
44 Concordia University(MI)
46 Union College(NE)
46 Concordia University”St. Paul(MN)
46 Greenville College(IL)
46 Tri – State University(IN)
50 Tabor College(KS)
50 Defiance College(OH)
52 Culver – Stockton College(MO)
52 Mount Vernon Nazarene U.(OH)
52 Marian College(IN)
March 5, 2007 - 10:37 PM on March 5th, 2007
15-
Well the cross has been there and the school has done just fine with the recruitment of top students. Can you point out where they have had to lower their standards to get a dumber group in there to fill the school? Can you point out where the enrollment dropped because of the cross? And aren’t we really trading one religion for another..It appears that religion still does matter if I read you correctly..you say that the Christians are keeping the Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists out…so are all those religious people backwards and anti-intellectual?
March 6, 2007 - 02:57 AM on March 6th, 2007
18.
Nope, Ted, you’re wrong again, though at least you seem to recognize your (Ohio) Wesleyan error. You just linked to the top bachelors only programs in the midwest (a pretty weak list and one that the USN&WR has only recently been bothering with). To be included on this list the institution must focus primarily on undergraduate education just as the liberal arts colleges do but grant fewer than 50 percent of their degrees in liberal arts disciplines. They also must offer a range of programs in professional fields such as business, nursing and education—they’re essentially 4 year vocational schools. This is why the list that you’ve posted includes so many poor schools and leaves out both the best midewestern universities (e.g., UMichigan, UChicago) and the best midwestern liberal arts colleges (e.g., Swarthmore, Haverford, Grinnel, Oberlin). Oberlin is not a vocational school; it offers MAs in music; and it’s also still a liberal-arts college; thus, it isn’t on the list. The other list you’re citing (the one with OSU) only includes universities (not L.A. colleges). It’s the other important list (though I’m sad to see that the school where I completed my MA has dropped to 12th). 
Here’s the actual list of the top liberal arts colleges. Oberlin is ranked higher than any other Ohio college:
1. Williams College,
2. Amherst College,
3. Swarthmore College,
4. Wellesley College,
5. Middlebury College
6. Carleton College,
7. Bowdoin College, Pomona College, Haverford College (tie)
10. Davidson College, Wesleyan University (tie)
12. Vassar College, Claremont McKenna College, Grinnell College (tie)
14. Harvey Mudd College
16. Colgate University
17. Hamilton College, Washington and Lee University (tie)
19. Smith College,
20. Colby College, Bryn Mawr College (tie)
22. Oberlin College,
23. Bates College,
24. Macalester College, Mount Holyoke College (tie)
26. Barnard College, Colorado College, Scripps College (tie)
29. Bucknell University
30. Trinity College-Ct., Lafayette College (tie)
32. Kenyon College, College of the Holy Cross (tie)
I can’t paste the information from my guide to colleges, but I think that you can “search this book” on Amazon. You’ll see that, as I posted above, Oberlin is the only “5 star” school in Ohio. It is also number one among all Ohio schools in terms of average (ACT/SAT) test schores, high school GPA of entering students, % of students going on to advanced degrees (including placement in medical schools and law schools), and general selectivity.
March 6, 2007 - 03:17 AM on March 6th, 2007
19. Well the cross has been there and the school has done just fine with the recruitment of top students.
But, as I noted above, more and more students are coming from international (and, thus, multi-denominational) backgrounds. As for the top American students: What might have been tolerable even a decade ago (in the years before the stem-cell and intelligent design debates heated-up) is not necessarily tolerable now. I didn’t grow up thinking that religion was opposed to rational thought, but I sure do now. My point is that even if the students weren’t bothered by the cross even ten or twenty or fifty years ago, times have changed. I’m not sure if there are statistics available on the percentage of students preferring secular (or at least non-xtian) schools, but if these statistics exist, I’m sure that the president of W&M is aware of them.
And aren’t we really trading one religion for another.
Well, depending on what you mean here, we’re either trading one religion for the tolerance of multiple religions (which still includes the first) or we’re trading one religion for the “religion” of tolerance (which still tolerates the first, though not its claims to be the one true religion).
so are all those religious people backwards and anti-intellectual?
On some level, I believe that they are. I believe that religion is a crutch for those unable or unwilling to see the world as it is, for those who can’t get by without believing that an old man in heaven with a beard is pulling the strings or that when they die they’ll get to nail a bunch of virgins in the promised land. That being said, I am in favor of the tolerance of each religion, a tolerance that ceases as soon as that religion becomes intolerant.
March 6, 2007 - 04:00 AM on March 6th, 2007
though at least you seem to recognize your (Ohio) Wesleyan error.
Yes I did, but as I said I stated why. Wesleyan’s tuition is exhorbatant, but the quality of education is only seconded to Ivy League Schools.
You just linked to the top bachelors only programs in the midwest (a pretty weak list and one that the USN&WR has only recently been bothering with).
Yes I did, as that is where the vast majority of college education is derived from. In most instances, a master’s degree isn’t course that most people pursue.
To be included on this list the institution must focus primarily on undergraduate education just as the liberal arts colleges do but grant fewer than 50 percent of their degrees in liberal arts disciplines.
Link please?
“This is why the list that you’ve posted includes so many poor schools and leaves out both the best midewestern universities (e.g., UMichigan, UChicago) and the best midwestern liberal arts colleges (e.g., Swarthmore, Haverford, Grinnel, Oberlin).”
Not at all. Those were included in the National Universities list. They aren’t considered regional like Oberlin. Just to reach this level takes a bit of “prestige”, don’t you think?
“Oberlin is not a vocational school; it offers MAs in music; and it’s also still a liberal-arts college; thus, it isn’t on the list. The other list you’re citing (the one with OSU) only includes universities (not L.A. colleges). It’s the other important list (though I’m sad to see that the school where I completed my MA has dropped to 12th).
”
Yes.
Mine is tied for 4th ATM. That said…
I can state unequivocally that Berkeley who is tied for 21 on the national universities list has a better music program than Oberlin. I can also state the same for Ohio State, who is ranked 57th.
Also, Oberlin is NOT included in the list of universities top master’s programs (see below). The fact they offer some MA programs is irrlelevant to the point, as they weren’t categorized as such. It is an LA college, period.
Here’s the actual list of the top liberal arts colleges. Oberlin is ranked higher than any other Ohio college:
You can’t restrict a list of “most prestigious college(s) in Ohio” (your standard) to just LA colleges- that’s illogical. You may consider that, but it is probably because it is the background from which you come. There is no arguing the fact that the nost prestigiius school in Ohio is Ohio State. The have a comprehensive master’s program, some of the best medical facilities in the country, etc, etc. You can’t argue that Princeton, Harvard and MIT is less prestigious because they are on a national universities list. I can state unequivically that Berkelry who is ties for 21 on the national universities list has a better music program than Oberlin. I can also state the same for Ohio State, who is ranked 57th.
On the same claim as yours, that one can’t use the “national universities” list to measure the “most prestigious” any more than one can not strictly use the LA colleges list either.
Howver, if you wish to measure by their master’s programs…
1 Creighton University(NE)
2 Xavier University(OH)
4 Drake University(IA)
5 John Carroll University(OH)
5 Butler University(IN)
7 Bradley University(IL)
8 Truman State University(MO) *
9 Drury University(MO)
9 Hamline University(MN)
11 University of Evansville(IN)
11 Baldwin – Wallace College(OH)
13 College of St. Catherine(MN)
14 Rockhurst University(MO)
14 Bethel University(MN)
16 North Central College(IL)
17 Capital University(OH)
18 University of Northern Iowa *
18 Dominican University(IL)
20 Univ. of Wisconsin”La Crosse *
21 College of St. Scholastica(MN)
22 University of Detroit Mercy
23 Augsburg College(MN)
23 Doane College(NE)
23 Webster University(MO)
26 Univ. of Wisconsin”Eau Claire *
27 University of Michigan”Dearborn *
28 University of Indianapolis
29 Maryville Univ. of St. Louis(MO)
30 Carthage College(WI)
30 Benedictine University(IL)
30 Franciscan U. of Steubenville(OH)
30 Washburn University(KS) *
30 St. Mary’s Univ. of Minnesota
30 Heidelberg College(OH)
36 St. Xavier University(IL)
37 Concordia University(NE)
37 Univ. of Wisconsin”Stevens Point *
37 Anderson University(IN)
40 University of St. Francis(IL)
40 St. Ambrose University(IA)
40 College of Mount St. Joseph(OH)
40 University of Minnesota”Duluth *
44 Grand Valley State University(MI) *
44 North Park University(IL)
44 Baker University(KS)
47 Lawrence Technological Univ.(MI)
47 Lewis University(IL)
47 Eastern Illinois University *
47 Aquinas College(MI)
51 Univ. of Wisconsin”Whitewater *
51 Concordia University”River Forest(IL)
53 Olivet Nazarene University(IL)
53 Ashland University(OH)
55 Western Illinois University *
55 Malone College(OH)
55 Univ. of Wisconsin”Platteville *
55 Southern Illinois U.”Edwardsville *
59 Univ. of Wisconsin”River Falls *
59 Spring Arbor University(MI)
59 Missouri State Univ. *
62 Indiana Wesleyan University
62 Ursuline College(OH)
62 Winona State University(MN) *
65 Concordia University Wisconsin
65 Univ. of Nebraska”Kearney *
65 Fontbonne University(MO)
68 Viterbo University(WI)
68 University of Wisconsin”Stout *
70 University of Nebraska”Omaha *
70 University of Sioux Falls(SD)
70 Edgewood College(WI)
70 Mount Mary College(WI)
70 Univ. of Wisconsin”Green Bay *
March 6, 2007 - 05:27 AM on March 6th, 2007
Not at all. Those were included in the National Universities list. They aren’t considered regional like Oberlin. Just to reach this level takes a bit of “prestigeâ€, don’t you think?
Clearly you’re confused. Oberlin isn’t considered “regional.” The list you posted was a regional list. The list I posted included all of the top l.a. colleges in the US. Look again. The reason that USN&WR specifies “National” on their university rankings doesn’t mean that everything else is regional (unless its noted as such, as your list was); it means that schools like Oxford, Cambridge, and the Sorbonne (all universities) weren’t considered. International lists are also available.
I can state unequivocally that Berkeley who is tied for 21 on the national universities list has a better music program than Oberlin. I can also state the same for Ohio State, who is ranked 57th.
Care to link to that? Every ranking I’ve seen places Oberlin in the top 5 (right behind Juliard and Eastman). Are you trying to argue that OSU has a good music program because of its marching band? TBDBITL isn’t an official ranking. Oberlin’s conservatory students (like Eastman’s and Juliard’s) go on to play in the world’s top orchestras. As far as Berkeley goes…I think that you’re confused again. Berklee College of Music (in Boston) has one of the besy conservatories in the US (it’s usually ranked up there with Oberlin–though Berklee’s not as good for classical, it could be better for jazz). UC Berkeley has an OK music program, but nothing to write home about.
You can’t restrict a list of “most prestigious college(s) in Ohio”(your standard) to just LA colleges- that’s illogical. You may consider that, but it is probably because it is the background from which you come. There is no arguing the fact that the nost prestigiius school in Ohio is Ohio State.
I certainly can. OSU was the safety school for everyone in my high school class. It is indeed huge. It’s also unselective, has a poor graduation rate, large classes, etc. There’s nothing “prestigious”about it. It offers a lot of majors. That’s about it.
You can’t argue that Princeton, Harvard and MIT is less prestigious because they are on a national universities list.
I didn’t. Until fairly recently, the only two undergraduate USN&WR lists were the top universities (usually topped by Harvard/Yale/Princeton) and the top liberal arts colleges (usually topped by Amherst/Williams/Swarthmore). If you’re interested in prestige, these are the two lists that have always mattered. If you don’t know this, then you simply don’t know much about colleges. If you want to compare across the two lists”e.g., if you’re trying to decide whether to attend Brown or Amherst, for example”you can either buy the USN&WR college guide or any of a dozen other college guides and look at specific data. What you’ll see is that Oberlin is ranked higher than any other school in Ohio in all of the categories that I mentioned. When defining prestige, the most important category is, however, selectivity. When people say “Wow, you got in to Harvard?â€, what they mean is that over 90% of the people who wanted to go couldn’t. Not too many people say “Wow, you got in to OSU?”mainly because OSU is incredibly easy to get into. If you’re using the term “prestige”in some way that resists this sort of quantification, please let me know what your standards are.
My college guide includes under each college/university a list of “comparable schools,” that is, “people who go to school X also consider and occasionally choose Y or Z.” With Oberlin, the list is “Barnard, Brown, Rice, Wesleyan.” The two “comparable” universities are ranked 15th and 17th on the university list respectively. Under OSU is listed OU, Pitt and UIowa–all ranked about as low as OSU itself.
On the same claim as yours, that one can’t use the “national universities”list to measure the “most prestigious”any more than one can not strictly use the LA colleges list either.
I’m not using either list alone, though I’m willing to say that one certainly can’t use the “Best Budget Schools in the Midwest,”or whatever as a comparable list. The differences between the LA schools and the Universities is not a matter of prestige insofar as the top schools each list (with the exception of Harvard, Yale and Princeton, which would rule either list) are comparable with respect to selectivity, standardized test scores, students going on to advanced degrees (grad school/med school/law school), etc.
I’m not sure what your Masters program list is supposed to refer to. Oberlin only offers one MA (in music) and doesn’t bother to submit statistics on it to USN&WR—only two or three students are enrolled in the program at any one time. If you’re actually interested in the best graduate programs (meaning PhD and MA), there aren’t many surprises in the rankings (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Cornell, Stanford, etc.), though this depends on the specific advanced degree.
March 6, 2007 - 05:40 AM on March 6th, 2007
To be included on this list the institution must focus primarily on undergraduate education just as the liberal arts colleges do but grant fewer than 50 percent of their degrees in liberal arts disciplines.
Link please?
Here’s the link–it’s from the site that you took your list from, so I thought that you would have seen it.
I wasn’t knocking them because they were BA only (Oberlin is practically BA only, as are nearly all LA colleges). I was knocking them because they’re basically vocational schools.
Look again at what I posted: The list you posted includes none of the best universities or liberal arts schools (Amherst, Swarthmore, Williams, etc.).
March 6, 2007 - 06:16 AM on March 6th, 2007
This debate is silly. I’ve worked in academia for decades and anyone can tell you that there are two “prestigious” schools in Ohio: Oberlin and Case Western. Oberlin is the better undergraduate institution (and certainly the best in Ohio), while Case is excellent for graduate work in the hard sciences and engineering. This has been true for years.
There’s nothing “prestigious” about Ohio State. It’s a fine school and very large, but it’s also quite easy to gain admittance to. Unfortunately, it seems more interested in its sports programs than competing with superior state schools like Berkeley, Michigan or UNC.
March 6, 2007 - 08:20 AM on March 6th, 2007
Is there any point to this debate? The point missed by all of you is that one large donor walked away from W&M because they decided to cave into the religious bigotry, amply demonstrated by AKD, and W&M lost their base principles.
I live blocks from Loras and Clarke colleges. I graduated from UW-LaCrosse, one of my brothers from Bethel in Minnesota. My daughter turned down free rides to those colleges, as well as UNI (Northern Iowa), Iowa State, and Iowa to go to USC (SoCal).
The program is one thing, but it is what you can do afterwards that counts.
March 6, 2007 - 08:23 AM on March 6th, 2007
Oh, I went to UW-Green Bay back in the 70s. I transfered out because the place had no direction and any education you got was mainly if you went to the library to teach yourself. When I transferred to UW-L, they barely took my credits from UW-GB. In fact the admissions people said GB was in danger of losing it’s accreditation for being so off the wall Liberal.
St. Norbert also has the distincting for being the Training camp home of the Green Bay Packers.
March 6, 2007 - 08:26 AM on March 6th, 2007
That would be very cool to see colleges losing their accreditation for being little more than propaganda camps for Leftist indoctrination.
March 6, 2007 - 12:35 PM on March 6th, 2007
Hey PCD,
Care to explain why multidenominationalism is the same thing as religious bigotry?
That would be very cool to see colleges losing their accreditation for being little more than propaganda camps for Leftist indoctrination.
As it is, the schools having trouble with accreditation seem to be the religious institutions trying to get their stundents to believe that the earth was created in a week.
March 6, 2007 - 12:54 PM on March 6th, 2007
Watch your words AKD. Jesus Christ is the son of god, in one religion anyway.
The funny thing is, the majority of radical Christians (not the normal people) do not understand that their Son of God was meerly a prophet in Judaism, and again in Islam. Somehow, he became the Son of God in Christianity. I wonder why, perhaps the name has something to do with it.
March 6, 2007 - 01:00 PM on March 6th, 2007
29, AKD, W&M was trying to give Christianity the ?Bum’s Rush” out the door. While they are a private college with the right to do so, they should not be surprised when Christian donors stop giving.
Ryan, you stand for nothing, yet fall for everything.
March 6, 2007 - 01:05 PM on March 6th, 2007
31. Christian services will continue at the college (which is apparently public, though I didn’t know this until I checked), and the cross will be present for them. Nobody’s getting the “bum rush.”
March 6, 2007 - 01:27 PM on March 6th, 2007
32, you must be really disappointed AKD. You can’t put your flavor of athiesm in its stead, can you.
March 6, 2007 - 01:48 PM on March 6th, 2007
PCD,
“Ryan, you stand for nothing, yet fall for everything.” -Stop quoting bad country songs.
How does your statement have any relevance whatsoever to my initial posting #30? Please answer this.
I suggest you join a “teen talk” blog. With your lack of communication skills, you may even excell in that area.
You should lock yourself in a shoe closet where your mindless rants and negativities can’t disrupt the progress of the rest of the world.
March 6, 2007 - 02:08 PM on March 6th, 2007
You can’t put your flavor of athiesm in its stead, can you.
Boy, you certainly are a poet. Actually, I do think that this is a (small) victory for atheism. As young people become conscious of the fact that there exist numerous religions claiming to be the “one true path,” the claims of each individual religion look less and less valid.
March 6, 2007 - 02:11 PM on March 6th, 2007
34, If you weren’t so stupid, ryan, you’d know that is a quote from Ben Franklin.
You are the one who needs to both grow up and experience real life. Get off the bong and out of your parents’ basement.
March 6, 2007 - 02:33 PM on March 6th, 2007
AKD – I agree. Religion can be very important to those who choose to use the pholosiphies and teachings in a positive light.
However, to entertain the idea that MY RELIGION is the one and only TRUE RELIGION is a sad dellusion, and can be quite destructive if one bestows “Gods Will” upon ones self.
“I’m Christian, and I stand for the death penalty.” -this has got to be one of the best I’ve heard.
March 6, 2007 - 02:41 PM on March 6th, 2007
37.
Hey Ryan,
If you’d like a good laugh, read the archived debate on this site over the inclusion of “In God We Trust” on coins—I found it during the intelligent design discussion. Nearly all of the biggest windbags on the site got involved and they got their asses handed to them. It becomes pretty clear pretty quick that either none of them has ever read the bible or that none of them has actually understood it. Here’s a link.
March 6, 2007 - 03:35 PM on March 6th, 2007
Thank you AKD. I will read the link and let you know what I think.
I honeslty do believe in one true God. I have a very hard time believing in mans many interpretations of this God, and I certainly don’t believe that God created a lottery in order to get into “heaven.” -Pick the right religion, you get one choice.
How does a practical thinker not take this into consideration:
What happened to all those born before Christ? Do they just go to Hell and suffer eternally becuase they didn’t have the chance to accept or learn the teachings of Christ. -Which may I add was a brilliant philosopher (although nothing more).
What about those who have never seen a white man, let alone had the opportunity to “be saved” simply because of their geographical location?
Why is there a 65 million year gap between dino’s and man?
While we are at it, why were dino’s never mentioned. -perhaps because they were first discovered by man much later than we wrote the Bible.
Why is Jesus mentioned in other religions, but not as the Son of God?
Anyway, I’m done ranting. I’ll read the link.
Thanks again!
March 6, 2007 - 03:42 PM on March 6th, 2007
38- AKD, there is quite a difference between reading the bible and understanding the Bible. You obviously are no mental giant on the subject, therefore, I would either keep quiet or add something productive to the conversation. I watched you sputter on the Oberlin conversation:
You started out with ” It’s now by far the most prestigious college in Ohio (Kenyon, I think, is a distant second).”
And the back peddled to “top liberal arts colleges”
You refer to “professional fields such as business, nursing and education” as vocations, but the somehow “Oberlin is not a vocational school; it offers MAs in music”
And now let’s get to the boorish behavior exhibited by you, and I’m guessing you are new money or no money as these kinds of things are not said by those with “proper” upbringing:
“If you’re interested in prestige, these are the two lists that have always mattered. If you don’t know this, then you simply don’t know much about colleges.”
March 6, 2007 - 03:54 PM on March 6th, 2007
“38- AKD, there is quite a difference between reading the bible and understanding the Bible.”
Peejz – I look to you for guidence. I was always told that the Bible was written very sybmolically, and not to be taken literally. In fact, this always seems to come up when the other feels stumped.
My question to you is what is the proper way to “understand” the Bible (other than you have to accept Christ first). If it is written in such a way that can be percieved very differently depending on the reader, who is to say one “understands” it and the other doesn’t?
Thanks much,
Ryan
March 6, 2007 - 04:18 PM on March 6th, 2007
41- Ryan, I was raised in the Catholic Church and consider myself a practicing Catholic. My priest knows my feelings on gay rights, illegal immigration, the death penalty and invitro fertilization, and yet I still get a big hug from him when he sees me!
Guess what, I took the time to talk with him and I listened to him, I respect him and I would guess he feels the same, as I keep getting calls to help out:smile:
I was never taught to take the bible in the literal sense that it was written..do we really think people lived 900 years? What was a year considered?
Different religions have different interprutations for the Bible. As a Catholic, I was taught to embrace Judaism, afterall, my religion stemmed from it, and we are taught that the Episcopalian faith only differs on a few things..I have never been taught that my religion is “the best” or “the only” but I was taught “I believe in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church”. When I say this, I am saying that I believe in my Catholic teachings and I will remain true to the Catholic Church..it doesn’t mean that I can’t be friends with an aethist or a person of another faith.
You didn’t ask, but I will tell you what irks me to no end: A person that has no religious background rattling off quotes from the Bible, taking those words literally and having absolutely no understanding of what it is that they just quoted….”but it says..” oh how that irks me:wink:
March 6, 2007 - 04:43 PM on March 6th, 2007
AKD how can you possibly interpret the Bible? It is a deep scholarly subject, the domain of experts! Are you a trained, educated, accredited theologian? Then how can you render an opinion? The only opinion you are qualified to have it what the experts by consensus tell you to have! Just as with Global Warming and climate change, by your own reasoning and argument.
March 6, 2007 - 04:46 PM on March 6th, 2007
40.
You started out with “It’s now by far the most prestigious college in Ohio (Kenyon, I think, is a distant second).” And the [sic] back peddled to “top liberal arts collegesâ€
It’s the most prestigious college in Ohio as well as being one of the top liberal arts coleges in the country–the two aren’t mutually exclusive sweetheart. God you’re slow. See the post from JD—it clears the issue up.
You refer to “professional fields such as business, nursing and education”as vocations, but the [sic] somehow “Oberlin is not a vocational school; it offers MAs in musicâ€
When you refer to something as a “vocational school,” this means something very specific. Some schools that began by offering two-year associates degrees have expanded a bit and now offer B.A.s (usually retaining a two-year component). If a school offers an MA, this doesn’t make it a vocational school. Did you even attend college? You really seem to be floundering.
And now let’s get to the boorish behavior exhibited by you, and I’m guessing you are new money or no money as these kinds of things are not said by those with “proper”upbringing:
“If you’re interested in prestige, these are the two lists that have always mattered. If you don’t know this, then you simply don’t know much about colleges.â€
Your response was prissier than usual, peejz honey,—apparently solarc touched a nerve.
March 6, 2007 - 04:46 PM on March 6th, 2007
Again, thank you for your response Peejz. While we may disagree in certain aspects, I bet we DO agree on many others. I respect your ideals (and communication skills) and thus, very much enjoy conversing with you.
Regarding the thing that irks you: I understand your point exactly. I am sure you would agree with the importance of bringing these quotes to light, even if we don’t understand them. After all, how else would those who don’t understand be educated by those who do.
All the best,
Ryan
March 6, 2007 - 04:47 PM on March 6th, 2007
AKD how can you possibly interpret the Bible? It is a deep scholarly subject, the domain of experts! Are you a trained, educated, accredited theologian? Then how can you render an opinion? The only opinion you are qualified to have it what the experts by consensus tell you to have! Just as with Global Warming and climate change, by your own reasoning and argument.
I actually said that you weren’t qualified to have an opinion Robert; that’s because you’re a moron.
March 6, 2007 - 04:48 PM on March 6th, 2007
44.
“Are you serious? You’re actually accusing me of being tacky? On Right Voices!? Chez snowy egret, Robert, and PCD!?!”
AKD – Lets not get PCD started again!
March 6, 2007 - 04:52 PM on March 6th, 2007
I actually said that you weren’t qualified to have an opinion Robert; that’s because you’re a moron.
Your response is as vapid as usual, AKD. You clealry suffer from a most severe case of cranial-rectal inversion.
March 6, 2007 - 04:52 PM on March 6th, 2007
AKD = solarc
March 6, 2007 - 04:55 PM on March 6th, 2007
42. You didn’t ask, but I will tell you what irks me to no end: A person that has no religious background rattling off quotes from the Bible, taking those words literally and having absolutely no understanding of what it is that they just quoted:.â€but it says..”oh how that irks me
If it irks you, maybe you should actually demonstrate a knowledge of the bible rather than just insisting on your knowledge and hoping that everyone falls for it. This would seem to be a better strategy than embarassing yourself and then giving up a’la the solarc “debate.” Why should “background” trump knowledge?
By the way, that was cute how you locked the comments on the ID debate so as to get the last word in (even though you only succeeded in demonstrating once again that you didn’t understand the issue). Anything to duck a real argument, huh dear?
March 6, 2007 - 05:01 PM on March 6th, 2007
AKD = solarc
Reply by Peejz
44- I wasn’t speaking to JD, I was speaking to you.
When you refer to something as a “vocational school,”this means something very specific.- Like music? Or are you saying that music is not specific?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_school“>College or university school of music: The two groups overlap more than they used to, with the specific balance of vocational training and academic study varying from one institution to another.
You’re actually accusing me of being tacky? : no I used the word http://www.answers.com/topic/boorish“>boorish>. Lacking in delicacy or refinement. And yes I am referring to you.
If solarc had the ability to discuss the matter, the debate would have continued, but it was like talking to an eight year old that just talks in circles..says lots of words, but nothing coherant comes out.
that was cute how you locked the comments on the ID debate Yes i did. The spammers were hitting it and I got tired of having to edit them out…You will see that happening more often because they are starting to hit newer threads rather than old. Don’t like it? Tough!
When you present a real arguement, I’ll be the first to congratulate you. Arguements don’t start with “the discussion is over”.
March 6, 2007 - 05:07 PM on March 6th, 2007
Fact remains that it was the donors money, and his/her decision on how to spend it. If an individual chooses to no longer support an organization do to conflict of beliefs, that is their decision (and really not one to be argued).
If W&M was able to raise $500+ Million for the year, what the hell does $12 mil mean to them anyway?
We can argue about this till the cows come home, however, at the end of the day does it really matter? Is it going to make any difference?
The world is ever changing. The evils and inconsistancies of religion are showing their ugly faces more and more each day. We no longer need religion to employ order, we are much more sophisticated now.
Now, lets figure out how to solve this problem we call Operation Iraqi Freedom.
March 6, 2007 - 05:25 PM on March 6th, 2007
They returned the cross.
So it goes.
March 6, 2007 - 05:30 PM on March 6th, 2007
AKD,
Just found time to read the link you’ve provided. Have to say I enjoyed reading the posts from Solarc.
I love the “I know Jesus said that, but he meant this..” mentality. This seems to be highly blasphemous, by definition alone.
I also enjoyed the fact that “Jesus” stopped by to drop his opinion.
After reading the link, I am starting to realize how Mormonism still runs rampent in this country, especially in this age of readily available knowledge.
March 6, 2007 - 05:32 PM on March 6th, 2007
53.
HA HA!
The almighty DOLLAR speaks!
March 7, 2007 - 07:10 AM on March 7th, 2007
51. Oh come on Peejz. You suggested that my “boorishness” was likely a product of my being “new money.” This has to be one of the funniest things I’ve seen posted here.