Amnesty Open Thread Open Trackback!
‘It’s here: The Bush-Kennedy amnesty Report: Potential cost = $2.5 trillion Updated with GOP reax’ from Michelle Malkin.
The amnesty sellout arrives. Background at this post.
Lie of the day from Arlen “Illegal Alien Gold Card” Specter: “This will restore the rule of law.”
Bush called it “a much-needed solution to the problem of illegal immigration in this country” and said, if approved, the proposal “delivers an immigration system that is secure, productive, orderly and fair.”
Update: Reax from Sen. Jim DeMint…
“I hope we don’t take a thousand page bill written in secret and try to ram it through the Senate in a few days. This is a very important issue for America and we need time to debate it.”"But the little we do know about the bill is troubling. According to reports, the bill contains a new ‘Z-visa’ that allows those who entered our country illegally to stay here permanently without ever returning home. This rewards people who broke the law with permanent legal status, and puts them ahead of millions of law-abiding immigrants waiting to come to America. I don’t care how you try to spin it, this is amnesty.”
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Via Kate O’Beirne, Heritage Foundation scholar Robert Rector estimates the bill’s pricetag at a potential $2.5 trillion with a “t:”
Giving amnesty to illegal immigrants would increase the costs outlined in this testimony. Some 50 to 60 percent of illegal immigrants lack a high school degree. Granting amnesty or conditional amnesty to illegal immigrants would, overtime, increase their use of means-tested welfare, Social Security and Medicare. Fiscal costs would go up significantly in the short term but would go up dramatically after the amnesty recipient reached retirement. Based on my current research, I estimate that if all the current adult illegal immigrants in the U.S. were granted amnesty the net retirement costs to government (benefits minus taxes) could be over $2.5 trillion.
Excerpts from an e-mail bulletin by Roy Beck of NumbersUSA:
Although we don’t have the legislative language yet, here are the key components:WE LOSE — by getting an immediate amnesty for nearly all 12-20 million illegal aliens who will get legal status for residence and jobs (with assurance of green cards no later than 13 years).
IN EXCHANGE FOR — we get mandatory workplace verification and a lot of extra enforcement (with a lot of typical Kennedy loopholes) to try to slow the flow of the next 12 million illegal aliens enticed by the amnesty;
WE LOSE — by getting a tripling of the rate of chain migration of extended family from around 250,000 a year to around 750,000 a year for about a decade;
IN EXCHANGE FOR — after about a decade, there should be no more chain migration (assuming that Kennedy doesn’t add it back in by then);
WE LOSE — by getting new flows of 400,000 temporary foreign workers each year, bringing their families and having anchor babies who will be given U.S. citizenship;
IN EXCHANGE FOR — at least the temporary workers are supposed to leave and not be able to apply for greencards and permanent residency.
WHY THE REPUBLICANS ARE STAMPEDING TO BACK THIS AMNESTY
The majority of Republican Senators last year voted against the S. 2611 amnesty that passed.
But at a noon meeting today with nearly all GOP Senators, Sen. Kyl outlined the amnesty agreement he had negotiated with Sen. Kennedy. Our sources say only about three Senators raised concerns. Most of the rest were saying things like, “If you think this is a good idea, John, I guess that should be good enough for us.”
Pres. Bush and staff have been brilliant in moving Sen. McCain (R-Ariz.) and Sen. Martinez (R-Fla.) into a more secondary role and persuading conservative leader Kyl to lead the negotiations. Kyl is able to lead many Senators to follow him who would otherwise not support an amnesty of any kind.
At the moment, the only Senators whom we feel relatively certain are opposing this new amnesty are Sen. DeMint (R-SC), Enzi (R-Wyo.), Crapo (R-Idaho), Vitter (R-La.), Allard (R-Colo.), Sessions (R-Ala.), Chambliss (R-Ga.), Grassley (R-Iowa)…
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NRO says “No to Bush-Kennedy:”
The 1986 immigration reform, with amnesty provisions that were implemented and enforcement provisions that weren’t, is instructive. But there is no need to hark back 20 years to illustrate the bad faith of “comprehensive” immigration reformers. Before last year’s elections, the Secure Fence Act, providing for the construction of a 700-mile fence at the southern border, handily passed Congress. In this week’s Republican presidential debate, Rep. Duncan Hunter, the fence bill’s House sponsor, angrily noted, “We have $1 billion cash on hand at the Department of Homeland Security right now for building the border fence. . . . They have done two miles. I think they want to drag their feet and hook this up with amnesty.” They do and they now have.The Bush administration’s price for its modestly beefed-up border security and workplace enforcement is amnesty for millions and a temporary-worker program for a few hundred thousand more each year. And the proposal’s conservative features vanish upon inspection.
Bush-Kennedy includes some enforcement “triggers” that increase resources at the border and establish an employment-verification program before amnesty or the new temporary-worker program can take effect. But there is no requirement that these measures be proved effective before the full implementation of Kennedy’s wish list, and the reform does not include critical provisions to prevent identity theft and the use of fraudulent documents. Granting amnesty to millions of illegal aliens without first securing the border and ensuring a reliable system of workplace enforcement invites millions of others to follow their example in the hope of being granted amnesty during the inevitable next round of immigration reform.
The proposal contemplates ending “chain migration” by extended family members in favor of a merit system based on needed skills ” eventually. The current waiting lists for family members must first be eliminated, and immigration advocates can be expected to aggressively lobby for the status quo. Tamar Jacoby is already arguing against moving to merit. Not even yahoos will be fooled by the bill’s empty promise.
Finally, the enormous cost of granting legal status to millions of illegal aliens is being wholly ignored. Nearly two-thirds of illegal immigrants are low-skilled workers. Based on a detailed analysis of the net cost of low-skill households, Robert Rector of the Heritage Foundation estimates that the typical illegal-alien household receives $19,588 more in benefits than it pays in taxes each year. He explains that these costs would increase dramatically when an illegal alien reached retirement. Rector estimates that if all current illegal aliens were granted amnesty, the net retirement costs (benefits minus taxes) could be over $2.5 trillion.
As bad as the status quo on immigration policy is, it is preferable to this bill.
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Rep. Steve King: “Each one of these Senators should wear a scarlet letter ‘A’ for amnesty.”
HotAir has: Breaking: Bush, Senate leaders reach immigration agreement; Update: “I don’t care how you try to spin it, this is amnesty”
Others blogging:
- Michelle Malkin
- Captain’s Quarters
- Conservative Blogger
- GOP raises White Flag on Immigration, RIP America? | The Texas Blog
- Graham, DeMint on immigration deal » The Palmetto Scoop
- Ed Driscoll.com
- Mark Nicodemo
- BizzyBlog » ¿descanse en la paz, los Estados Unitos?
- No Runny Eggs » Blog Archive » R.I.P. United States of America (1789-2007)
- Ace of Spades HQ
- BETRAYED (AGAIN)Â
- GOP raises White Flag on Immigration, RIPÂ America?Â
- Senate and President To Grant Amnesty to 15 million Illegal ImmigrantsÂ
- 2007.05.17 Immigration Sellout RoundupÂ
- Immigration D�j� VuÂ
- Senate Sells Out on Amnesty For Illegal ImmigrantsÂ
- Bend Over, Senators Screw Legal AmericansÂ
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May 17, 2007 - 04:14 PM on May 17th, 2007
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May 17, 2007 - 06:07 PM on May 17th, 2007
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May 17, 2007 - 06:40 PM on May 17th, 2007
Eliot Spitzer v. The Seneca Nation
The Seneca Nation have treaty rights going back to the establishment of the U.S. But, the Native Americans have always been at a disadvantage in dealing with the Federal Government.
May 17, 2007 - 07:59 PM on May 17th, 2007
Who Profits Most On Gas?
I�ll give you a hint � not the oil companies. While oil companies make about 13 cents on a gallon of gasoline, the federal government makes 18.4 cents (the federal tax) and California’s various governments make 40.2 cents (the nation’s…
May 17, 2007 - 08:02 PM on May 17th, 2007
Hate Crime?
I guess I don’t see the crime here — much less how it rises to the level of a “hate crime”. Two 16-year-old Crystal Lake girls were expected in juvenile court Tuesday on hate-crime charges for allegedly printing and distributing…
May 17, 2007 - 08:18 PM on May 17th, 2007
Do You Find This Troubling?
No, not the stuff about suspending the teacher for threatening to shoot students. That is a proper move. No, I mean this little tidbit at the end of the article. In February he was reprimanded for including a biblical account…
May 17, 2007 - 09:16 PM on May 17th, 2007
Good-Bye Republican Party. The vast majority of these newly legal millions will vote Democratic! It is a nightmare. We will become Big Mexico. They can’t run their country and they will now destroy ours. I am so sad and worried.
May 17, 2007 - 10:08 PM on May 17th, 2007
Tom Tancredo explains correctly what’s in jihad
Sen. Tom Tancredo has again made an excellent point during the South Carolina GOP debate. Jihad Watch points to this item from 411mania that, while it’s writer is biased, still features a winning point:
May 17, 2007 - 11:24 PM on May 17th, 2007
Thank You Congress and Bush for Selling out the sovereignty of the United State of America.
I am very much ashamed of my fellow progressives.
It’s time for a third party.
-TP
May 18, 2007 - 04:07 AM on May 18th, 2007
This seems like a bad move.
May 18, 2007 - 07:41 AM on May 18th, 2007
3, this is a VERY bad move for this country. This will lead to first the Balkanization of the US, then dismsmberment of the Country.
May 18, 2007 - 08:07 AM on May 18th, 2007
More thugs,hoods,crinimals,crooks,rapists,child moleters,murderers,robbers,burglars and terrorists entering america from south of the border usless fools all:mad:
May 18, 2007 - 09:41 AM on May 18th, 2007
The scenario I have in my mind is very different than the above. I think the Republican party is a very strong party and because Bush is President there will be alot of illegals who feel it was him who made it possible for them to be here and therefore vote Republican and not Democrat. I predict it will be an even split as far as that goes.
As for the rest of it. Well, 30 million people is alot of people to allow into the country and it will cause alot of problems. Our economy is be the first to suffer I’m sure but it could work for us rather than against us because there would have to be welfare reform.
It’s a problem beyond a good solution and I think we just need to get to the best solution at this point. It would have been nice if laws had been enforced over the years but one can’t change the past; only the future. Maybe this will be the catalyst that pushes America into doing all that is necessary to make things right for everyone.
May 18, 2007 - 09:44 AM on May 18th, 2007
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May 18, 2007 - 01:53 PM on May 18th, 2007
Democrat Senate, Iraq, Iran, Russia, the Middle Ea
President Bush “predicted that after more than three months of stalemate, a deal was within reach to pay for the war through Sept. 30. …
May 18, 2007 - 05:35 PM on May 18th, 2007
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May 18, 2007 - 05:41 PM on May 18th, 2007
This is an amnesty bill plain and simple and it will be bad for both the country and the Republican party. Horrible is probably a more apt description. It doesn’t do a thing towards actually solving the problem, it simple immediately legitimizes millions of felons. I’m certain that comment will rile a few of our left leaning contributors, BUT it is accurate. The first time an alien enters this country illegally, it is a misdemeanor. Once they are deported, if they reenter the country illegally, it is a FELONY. Therefore any illegal alien in this country who has been previously deported is guilty of a FELONY. With the US Attornies in the south western border states refusing to prosecute anyone who hasn’t been arrested and deported half a dozen times (office policy in Texas, so I’m not making this up) there are millions of felons in this country that this will give amnesty to. Who is next? The drug dealers? Murderers? Kidnappers? Doesn’t the Constitution require equal treatment under the law? By giving blanket amnesty to MILLIONS of ILLEGAL ALIENS who are guilty of felonious illegal border crossing, doesn’t that set a precedent for having to give amnesty to every other felon in this country?
I have another question about this amnesty plan. If only the head of household has to leave the country for a background check, what about the teenage and young adult children that are engaged in criminal activity here already? We had three teenage illegal aliens DRAG RACING down the street here a couple of weeks ago. When the police officer stopped them, they didn’t have a single driver’s license among them. A little questioning and it was determined that they were illegal aliens. When the police called the parents, the parents refused to come to the station, so ICE deported the three back to Mexico. Of course the illegal alien advocates were screaming about them tearing a family apart. I just have to respond with, “Well, if the parents had come to collect their sons, ICE could’ve deported the entire family. ICE didn’t bring those kids into this country in violation of the law, that was their parents.” If only the head of the household will be paying a fine, doesn’t that amount to a complete pass for the rest of the family? How could this NOT be considered amnesty?
May 18, 2007 - 06:36 PM on May 18th, 2007
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May 18, 2007 - 10:21 PM on May 18th, 2007
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May 19, 2007 - 10:04 AM on May 19th, 2007
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May 19, 2007 - 11:42 AM on May 19th, 2007
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May 19, 2007 - 06:14 PM on May 19th, 2007
Oh the whiners are out in force in the media now. MSNBC is hyping the story of two illegals who popped out 4 anchor babies before being deported. I feel sorry for the kids, but it is the parents’ fault if the kids are used to living in the US and now have to live in Mexico. There are major glaring errors in the story too. The writer tells about how horrible the conditions in the little backwater village is with no phone service, or indoor plumbing, etc etc, then goes on to tell how Pedro Jr. is downloading MP3s from the internet to his Ipod with his “dusty” pc. Exactly how do you connect to the internet via a PC in a town with no phone service except via sat phone? And exactly how poor can they be if they’re still able to connect to the internet? If they’re that well off, they can probably get work in a city that will have the amenities like the US rather than live in some squalid village. All told the story reeks of being another MSM LIE. Exactly how does someone making $17/hour with 4-5 kids save up over $10,000 while living in Palo Alto, CA? For that matter, exactly how is being a night supervisor in a super market making $17/hour rate as doing a job American Citizens won’t do? Here’s a link if it goes through. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18756638/
I am so sick of these illegal aliens whining that they aren’t being given the world. They’re also whining that the US is now going to give out work visas based on education,job and language skills versus having family in the US. I just have to say it’s about time. Exactly why do we want to import poverty in the form of unskilled, uneducated labor?
May 19, 2007 - 06:20 PM on May 19th, 2007
Ron Paul
Supporters of Ron Paul for president have been bombing on line polls to give the impression that their candidate has more support than he really does. Fox news conducted a post debate poll that showed Paul placed second to Romney and the people at Fox…
May 20, 2007 - 09:10 AM on May 20th, 2007
If this passes – Goodbye Republican Party – Hello Mexican-American-Democrats, millions of them!!! Look how well they have improved things over in their country. Could this nightmare really be happening. I wonder if a bill for energy conservation written by Dick Chaney would have been as well recieved by the Democrats??? What to take odds on that one?
May 20, 2007 - 10:17 AM on May 20th, 2007
That’s one thing I don’t get Rightwing. Why don’t these Mexican nationals work to improve conditions in their own country before invading ours? I don’t support Bush on this billl as I think he is making a huge mistake. Too much give and not enough take. We’ll see how it all plays out though. I disagree that they will all vote democrat though. You may be surprised to find alot of them loyal to Bush and vote republican. Remember having a job is one of the criteria for remaining in our country. Working and not receiving hand outs is where it’s at.
May 20, 2007 - 12:28 PM on May 20th, 2007
Illegal aliens
…Judging from the continuously revised text being developed in the back alleys of the U.S. Senate, their method of dealing with the matter is to merely use different words.
May 20, 2007 - 12:35 PM on May 20th, 2007
Egypt allowed to join the UN’s Human Right Council
The sublining of this article in the Toronto Star says, “History of torture in African nation makes a mockery of UN, critics say”. But what difference does it make when the UN happens to be corrupt already, and it’s otherwise typical of them to allo…
May 20, 2007 - 12:41 PM on May 20th, 2007
A bionic bomb, or a six million dollar dud?
And now for a TV show topic, NBC is remaking The Bionic Woman, but the signs are not looking good.
May 20, 2007 - 06:07 PM on May 20th, 2007
The reason the illegals won’t fix Mexico is because the drug lords and their corrupt minions in the government control most of the firearms and the criminals kill anyone who speaks out against them with impunity.
May 20, 2007 - 06:39 PM on May 20th, 2007
Good point FAO but that doesn’t give them the right to come here and expect to have it all. This bill better have some very strict oversight and I mean strict oversight. I don’t want any of my tax dollars going to feed any one of them.
May 20, 2007 - 07:17 PM on May 20th, 2007
John Bolton’s mustache on the BBC
I’m a bit late getting to this, but I know some of my friends and readers have not heard this interview yet. Former U.S. Ambassador to the U.N., target of Democrats and pussy Republicans, John Bolton speaks candidly on the BBC
May 20, 2007 - 09:38 PM on May 20th, 2007
Illegal aliens – the current bill
Several means of viewing this 326 page document are now available. At the Truth Laid Bear, there’s a link to the PDF download (20mb) and he’s created an annotated version that you can view online and leave comments to the variou …
May 20, 2007 - 10:33 PM on May 20th, 2007
Look people this so called nation is now dead, the drug dealers own it and within 5 years mexico city will be running us out of the west, its not just 12 million enemies of freedom and justice its 100 million families of the evil enemy coming here, its part of the plan that evil Bush wants to take us down and its working real well.
No one will stand against it and bush and the one world rats know it real well in fact all of what you are now looking at is right out of the “the Turner diaries” that evil plan/book is being used to help in the murder of a nation and its laws AND ITS PEOPLE, so stop yelling and do something but that YOU will never do so go back and watch star gate, you people are not Americans the USA Is Dead,Dead and soon it will be mexico OR THE NAU and the third world monkey people will be running this little piss country and you will say nothing or do a thing.
Long Live the people of freedom, oh i forgot that is a joke is a third world country of no laws and soon no freedom to say a thing against the rat pig government, and may God help you all.
May 20, 2007 - 10:49 PM on May 20th, 2007
I’ve been telling you righties here at RV for a long time now that your political policies and feelings towards latino migrant workers will come back to haunt you sooner or later with latino voters.
Much like 90% of blacks vote Democrat, the latinos – a HUGE group of people – will vote (D).
And in case you haven’t heard, 1 out of 3 Americans is a minority.
You people are digging your political graves.
Congress is about to create tens of millions of new voters.
(!)
May 21, 2007 - 03:31 AM on May 21st, 2007
1- “It is a nightmare. We will become Big Mexico. They can’t run their country and they will now destroy ours.”
Yea… that sounds 100% different from the republican philospohy: “Distract from the ability to run your own country by declaring war to another country!”
Besides.. did any of your ancestors apply for immigration at the native-american population when they came to their continent? Is any of you aware that large parts of the US area formerly belonged to french & spanish colonists?
As I see it, a lot of people would rather be authorized to throw you invaders out of their country than vice-versa!!
May 21, 2007 - 06:30 AM on May 21st, 2007
So SFL does that mean you would be okay with a one party system?
May 21, 2007 - 06:36 AM on May 21st, 2007
15, Mattias, you are very ignorant of US History. Our forefathers purchased land from the Indians, the French, the Spanish, the Mexicans, and the Russians. Why don’t you Google the Lousiana Purchase, the Gadsden Purchase for a couple. Texas won a war of independance.
Shall we start to detail some of Germany’s land dealings over the years? Let’s start with the Germanification of Poland with the assistance of Catherine the Great of Russia? Some of my ancestors got duped into that one.
May 21, 2007 - 06:56 AM on May 21st, 2007
17- “Our forefathers purchased land from the Indians, the French, the Spanish, the Mexicans, and the Russians.
…
Shall we start to detail some of Germany’s land dealings over the years? Let’s start with the Germanification of Poland with the assistance of Catherine the Great of Russia?”
Muahahaha… that is a good one… and just see how happy the Indians are with that deal… Maybe we [Germans] also should have bought Poland with some glaspearls… and have German minorities in Russia fight an “independence war”…
Actually just one question to somebody who comes from the Land of the Free:
How are you supposed to “buy/sell” land with people living in it? Did any of those inhabitants see something from that money? Or were they bought/sold too?
May 21, 2007 - 07:16 AM on May 21st, 2007
Matthias…America always does whats right. Ever been to a casino? Lots and lots of money being made there and it’s Indian owned. How about that?
May 21, 2007 - 07:17 AM on May 21st, 2007
Just like German Aunschluss I guess. Or maybe I should ask people of Alsauce-Lorraine how they like being shuttled between Germany and France.
Mattias, how many times has your nose been broken? A jerk like you must have that happen weekly.
May 21, 2007 - 07:23 AM on May 21st, 2007
21- “Mattias, how many times has your nose been broken? A jerk like you must have that happen weekly.”
Never.. we don’t have that many loonies around here, who regard violence as a means of political expression/solution.
May 21, 2007 - 07:30 AM on May 21st, 2007
PS: We sold all those [loonies] to the US during the independence war..
I think, they founded the republican party afterwards..
..and the NRA…
May 21, 2007 - 07:48 AM on May 21st, 2007
21,22, No wonder Germany is lost and floundering. People like you are taken seriously instead of ignored or shipped out.
May 21, 2007 - 07:57 AM on May 21st, 2007
23- If I look at the development of the Dollar/Euro-rate and the international perception of our countries, I wonder who’s country is in trouble…
May 21, 2007 - 08:13 AM on May 21st, 2007
24, Mattias, you are the last person anyone here would consicer for financial advice or acumen. And, I say that without a gratutous slap at George Soros’ record for manipulating international currency markets for his own profit.
May 21, 2007 - 08:26 AM on May 21st, 2007
Good point there PCD. I heard he is banned from Britain for his little currency scheme. What a crook.
May 21, 2007 - 08:26 AM on May 21st, 2007
Hey Matt, My family came legally, and had to wait in line, My grandmother and grandfather became Anerican citizens and spoke ENGLISH, They weren’t fortuante enough to have signs written in German and English. They didn’t get to cut to the front of the line becaused they lived closer and could run across the border. Isn’t it depressing living the Liberal life? Everything is wrong with America and none of it is your fault???
May 21, 2007 - 09:07 AM on May 21st, 2007
25, 26- I know, folks…
You have more confidence in trustworthy guys like Wolfowitz when it comes to financial matters…
May 21, 2007 - 09:10 AM on May 21st, 2007
Hey Matthias…read the paper. Wolfowitz didn’t do anything wrong and he has plenty of documentation to prove it. The World Bank is nothing more than one more corrupt organization. I believe he’s a very happy man that he has the opportunity to leave.
May 21, 2007 - 09:16 AM on May 21st, 2007
28, actually, I’d be more inclined to listen to Warren Buffet than Soros. Wolfie is getting the bums’ rush from a bunch of bums.
May 21, 2007 - 08:01 PM on May 21st, 2007
“So SFL does that mean you would be okay with a one party system?”
No, not at all…
The Republican Party will adapt – eventually. It just won’t look like anything you have right now.
May 21, 2007 - 08:51 PM on May 21st, 2007
Only one thing wrong with your analysis SFL, under the plan as described by Senator Kyl on the radio this morning, the illegals will NOT be citizens and therefore NOT allowed to vote. We had a number of anti illegal propositions on the ballot here over the last few years and the ones last November won with a 70+% majority with over 50% of the Hispanic voters voting in favor of NOT providing social services, in state tuition, etc, etc to Illegal Aliens. Too bad our two Senators didn’t bother to see what the voters that they represent were trying to tell them. They may BOTH be looking at facing opposition in their next primaries.
On the topic of the NRA, it is the OLDEST civil liberties organization in the US and was founded in 1871 to insure that “promote and encourage rifle shooting on a scientific basis,”. They were founded by two senior Union Army officers and the first NRA President was General Ambrose Burnside. They happen to have supported the current instant background check system and provide more firearms safety training to children than ANY organization in the world. They also provide the training venues for the US civilian and military marksmanship competitions and championships. SO Matt until you know something about the organization, your comments about it are idiotic and maddening for those of us who do.
May 21, 2007 - 08:55 PM on May 21st, 2007
The system will become third world parties with hate for Americans the system will become so evil and hateful it will eat the old American Population alive and with hate laws against anyone who still thinks this is the old USA.
If Mexico city get’s what it wants it will start something that will end in mass murder of us all, anyone who can’t see the evil in mass Amnesty is a fool or a totally evil person.
Bin Laden is Bush and Bush hates are freedoms.the republican party is owned by the third world drug dealers, and so are the Rat one the so called other side, the political oligarchs are so happy with this mass murder it can’t wait until it gets its troops all in line, AGAINST THE IDEALS OF FREEDOM AND LAWS.
May 21, 2007 - 09:08 PM on May 21st, 2007
Oh yes! the end game is dismantling by defact this nation by using mass population of the third world, read Alex Jones listen to saving nation.
its best to start understanding what is happening before some camp guard is sent pick-you-up for talking against some third world ruler.
Freedom is not free.
May 22, 2007 - 04:00 AM on May 22nd, 2007
32- “On the topic of the NRA, it is the OLDEST civil liberties organization in the US and was founded in 1871 to insure that “promote and encourage rifle shooting on a scientific basis,â€. They were founded by two senior Union Army officers and the first NRA President was General Ambrose Burnside. They happen to have supported the current instant background check system and provide more firearms safety training to children than ANY organization in the world. They also provide the training venues for the US civilian and military marksmanship competitions and championships. SO Matt until you know something about the organization, your comments about it are idiotic and maddening for those of us who do.”
Well… maybe my view of the NRA is too much influenced of incidents in which gun-horny idiots abused the NRA-promoted right to carry guns to murder people. And unteachable (NRA)idiots say that this problem (based upon the ability to easily get a gun) could be solved by having even more people carry even more guns!?
However.. this is getting away from the original topic of the thread…
May 22, 2007 - 07:26 AM on May 22nd, 2007
35, Mattias, your views on everything are influenced by your juvenile contrarian view of authority. You reject Christian authority, therefore you marry a Muslim woman to spite your parents’ church and your parents.
You see everyone with a spine as an idiot. You see standing for prinipal as being a Nazi.
In summation, you are a total fool.
May 22, 2007 - 08:58 AM on May 22nd, 2007
36- “Mattias, your views on everything are influenced by your juvenile contrarian view of authority.”
Wow!!! Thank you for that compliment!!! *enjoy*
“You reject Christian authority, therefore you marry a Muslim woman to spite your parents’ church and your parents.”
My father left his church confession (primarily for tax reasons) before I was born and the noble christian priest of our community refused to baptize me for that reason. Finally an army priest baptized me. So I have a very unique view to “christian authority”… and even though I never attend church, I stick to my confession and pay my 100€/month because I have a christian belief that does not consist of the need to separate between believers and non-believers or sick barbaric ideas like “an eye for an eye”…
I would bet that my muslim wife thinks/lives (without knowing) much more a christian spirit than American christian fundamentalists that promote murder by death row, hate against gays or who regard non-caucasian minorities as a (”illegal”) threat, etc….
May 22, 2007 - 11:40 AM on May 22nd, 2007
37. Yes, Mattias, even the liberal CBS show, “60 Minutes” noticed the “thinning” of faith in Europe. You are the classic example. You pay your little fee to stay with your church, but you pick and choose what you wish to follow. If you don’t come close to Christ’s teachings, it is a “so what” to you. I would direct you to the verses where Christ despairs over lukewarm followers like yourself, but you wouldn’t care or change.
May 22, 2007 - 07:42 PM on May 22nd, 2007
Mattias your problem is that you rely on an anti gun liberal media for your information and anyone who contradicts that is an idiot in your view.
As for the idea that people being armed for self defense is a bad idea, I’d tell you to ask the Israelis. They’ve cut terrorist attacks against schools to almost nothing by allowing trained teachers to be armed.
Oh Wait, that’s historical fact and we mustn’t insist that a liberal actually accept facts when they contradict the media’s carefully crafted propaganda.
May 22, 2007 - 08:14 PM on May 22nd, 2007
As for this thread being about illegal aliens and their newest plan for amnesty, I actually live in a city that is a MAJOR way point for illegals being smuggled into this country. I know about the running gun battles on the highway by illegals with ILLEGALLY OBTAINED guns. I know about the HUGE drug busts (tons of marijuana, tens of kilos of cocaine, and in one week over 120 lbs of crytal Meth) involving Mexican Nationals in the US illegally. I work with a man who’s daughter was killed by an ILLEGAL who was driving a stolen car while drunk. An illegal who was on probation for….You guessed it driving a stolen car while intoxicated. An illegal who had been deported at least 5 times and had NEVER been prosecuted DESPITE the fact that after the first deportation, the second illegal entry was a felony. Of course because of my friend’s persistence in insuring this scum was finally prosecuted for his actions, ICE won’t be deporting him for another 30+ years. In the interim, the Arizona Taxpayers will be providing him with free room and board.
Mattias, you can’t tell me SHIT about illegal aliens in this country, you don’t have the frame of reference that I have. I have them for neighbors, they’ve flooded the local hospital emergency room without paying their bills to the point where the hospital is having to close the ER for the second time in 4 years. I have to drive through a crowd of them every time I go to the local home improvement center, and have had them practically jump in front of my truck when I drive around certain corners. I lawfully carry a gun with me because of the ongoing problems in this city with illegals carjacking and robbing people and smugglers attacking each other on the freeways and keeping dozens up to hundreds of illegals captive at gun point in houses throughout this metropolitan area. I know about the illegals who allow their early teen daughters to date illegals in their mid twenties and than scream for the police when the 20 something male kidnaps her at gun point in order to drag her to Mexico after they break up. It happened twice within one month here last year so I am not making this up.
Mattias as I said before, you base your comments on the carefully crafted propaganda of the main stream media. If you dig a little bit the facts are quite ugly. Illegal aliens represent 4 percent of the US population. They represent over 20 % of the prison population. That means that they are roughly 5-6 times as likely to be involved in criminal activity as a legal resident. By US records, 1 in 12 illegal aliens caught crossing the border has a criminal record. At that ratio, if there are 12 million illegal aliens in this country, 1 million of them have criminal records and are therefore ineligible to be in this country under ANY circumstance. Illegal aliens represent approximately 80% of those wanted for murder in LA county. Yes they only come here to do the jobs Americans won’t do….Rape, murder, drug dealing, drive by shootings, etc etc etc. Funny isn’t it that the French are moving to crack down on their illegal immigration problem?
May 22, 2007 - 10:08 PM on May 22nd, 2007
Read FrmrArtyoffcr, It will be the story of many of you in this coming evil future”.
Rats like Bush want Not to see the fact’s of the third world’s people, read Alex Jones listen to Savage Nation and understand what happen’s to people inside a Third World Nation. This so called Nation will soon be under-the-control of the political leaders of places like Mexico, your Government has Sold You Out and now Want’s Your Life Ended once and for all and understand you are nothing but property to the Pigs in washington you mean nothing and when Amnesty Becomes the Law, “you ideals”, “your love’s”, “your Law’s”, will mean nothing, OR BE USED AGAINST YOU FOR RACE AND POLITICAL IDEALS OF OTHER’S Just wait until the economic system collapse’s and the pig’s start eating you alive.
don’t be sheeple see it for what it is, EVIL.
And May God help you all.
May 22, 2007 - 10:49 PM on May 22nd, 2007
Matthias you like many other’s who have fallen for the same line people got from old Hitler, old hitler used the church’s, he used the Christian Religion and he used the Religious Authority for his End Game of Evil.
The Political System used the Clergy As it is being used today and the South American evil oligarchs will use you to help in the Building of camp’s for people who will not get into line.
Do not be a fool do not listen to the ideals coming from the drug dealers of Mexico City and Washington D.C., It’s a plan of total corruption just like old Hitler used almost 70 years ago to murder million’s of people almost 12 million jews and christian inside the hell of the death camp’s it can happen here and it will if rats of the so called American and third world oligarchs have it’s way. Long live Freedom and long live the ideals of the Bill Of Rights and the ideals of 1776. and may God Help you all,
May 23, 2007 - 03:10 AM on May 23rd, 2007
40. Funny isn’t it that the French are moving to crack down on their illegal immigration problem?
France’s problems are with Sans Papiers (unpapered workers who are nonetheless in the country legally, but whose children can’t attend French schools). There isn’t anything like an illegal immigration problem in France; there never has been.
May 23, 2007 - 04:31 AM on May 23rd, 2007
38 – ” I would direct you to the verses where Christ despairs over lukewarm followers like yourself, but you wouldn’t care or change.”
I may be a “lukewarm follower” in your eyes, but at least I don’t approve violence as a way to solve political conflicts like you do… I know that I may face my maker with a somewhat clear conscience! Maybe you should also read the passage in the bible where Jesus encounters the Pharisees…
May 23, 2007 - 04:34 AM on May 23rd, 2007
43- Wow that must be news to France!
results for france amnesty
New Ministry Says France Will Not Offer Mass Amnesty To Illegal …
AHNÂ - 13 hours ago
Paris, France (AHN) – The newly formed Ministry of Immigration and National Identity in France, created by recently elected President Nicolas Sarkozy, …
France rules out amnesty for immigrants Denver Post
all 99 news articles »
France joins EU-wide trend of trying to reduce illegal immigration
France to fingerprint tourist visa applicants
May 23, 2007 - 04:38 AM on May 23rd, 2007
39- “As for the idea that people being armed for self defense is a bad idea, I’d tell you to ask the Israelis. They’ve cut terrorist attacks against schools to almost nothing by allowing trained teachers to be armed.”
I have to express my most sinceres condolences to you, that you envy Israel as a role model for your country!
And why not extend that thought a little bit… why not having other war zone’s lifestyle in your country? Why not send the pupils and teachers with kevlar vests to school? Or give tasers to the teachers…
May 23, 2007 - 04:41 AM on May 23rd, 2007
46- well he never justified the behavior of Iraels neighbors that feel killing Jews is just like breathing…
May 23, 2007 - 04:49 AM on May 23rd, 2007
42- “Matthias you like many other’s who have fallen for the same line people got from old Hitler, old hitler used the church’s, he used the Christian Religion and he used the Religious Authority for his End Game of Evil.”
Huh?
May 23, 2007 - 04:57 AM on May 23rd, 2007
47- Peejz,
1) This Guns-topic gets (similar to PCD’s I-know-what-God-wants-discussion) too far away from the original thread, so you should open a separate one..
2) I wonder how many teachers in Israel are happy with this situation which forces them to be armed. Most problems are better solved by curing the cause and not the symptoms.
May 23, 2007 - 05:00 AM on May 23rd, 2007
The cure would be to rid the world of the Mulims that won’t live with a Jew? Are you up for that?
May 23, 2007 - 05:24 AM on May 23rd, 2007
50- A cure would be to stop Israel from importing settlers from the rest of the world, which banish muslims from the places where they were born! That is ethnic banishment… and I absolutely understand why the people to which this is done are “slightly” angry.
May 23, 2007 - 06:05 AM on May 23rd, 2007
51- if only that were a true statement
May 23, 2007 - 06:10 AM on May 23rd, 2007
52- Explain what is not true…
May 23, 2007 - 06:51 AM on May 23rd, 2007
53, Because, Mattias, if you ACTUALLY READ THE BIBLE AND YOUR HISTORY BOOKS YOU WOULD KNOW THE JEWS GOT BANISHED FROM PALESTINE IN THE FIRST PLACE!
Yes, I am shouting at a complete idiot and dullard that calls himself Mattias.
May 23, 2007 - 06:55 AM on May 23rd, 2007
45. Sure, sure. I understand the French situation and my response was poorly worded, but the problem with the sans papiers honestly doesn’t translate into the American idiom (different notions of jus soli, etc.). France has handled it horribly, though; maybe Sarkozy can do better, but I doubt it. I’ve lived in Paris on and off for the past few years and immigration-wise things remain a mess (though Paris is still infinitely safer and cleaner than any US city I can think of, and I’ve lived in some of Paris’ “worst” neighborhoods, e.g., near Place des Fêtes and near Stalingrad, though never the Banlieue).
Incidentally, I actually agree with most of what is being said here about illegals, border controls, etc. I think that securing borders would be a much more intelligent way to fight the “war on terror”(tm) than military adventurism. If we’re going to breed terrorists, we should at least keep them out of the country (of course it would be better to do the latter w/o doing the former). I assume that anyone with any sort of libertarian leaning (i.e., true conservatives) recognizes this as well.
May 23, 2007 - 07:05 AM on May 23rd, 2007
A cure would be to stop Israel from importing settlers from the rest of the world, which banish muslims from the places where they were born! That is ethnic banishment: and I absolutely understand why the people to which this is done are “slightly”angry.
This is an accurate statement. All of the rest of the world is aware of this fact; dozens and dozens of books have detailed it; nonetheless, in the U.S., to say it out loud is to be branded an anti-semite (because we all know that there’s no anti-arab sentinment in the U.S. :roll
if you ACTUALLY READ THE BIBLE AND YOUR HISTORY BOOKS YOU WOULD KNOW THE JEWS GOT BANISHED FROM PALESTINE IN THE FIRST PLACE!
An unsurprisingly moronic response from THE IDIOT PCD. Tell me, PCD, which “history books” on the Israel-Palestine conflict have you actually read? I’d love to see an annotated bibliography (or at least some indication that you know anything at all about the situation).
May 23, 2007 - 07:26 AM on May 23rd, 2007
AKD, I want to see how STUPID you are. When does your history start? 1967? 1948? 1910? How about 0 AD???
Did either you or Mattias ever hear of the Diaspora? Of the Romans destroying the Temple in Jerusalem? That is the Temple Mount the Jews and Arabs are fighting over because the Arabs built a Mosque on the site to take it away from the Jews.
Now, DUMBASS AKD. You want to continue beien arrogantly Stupid????
May 23, 2007 - 07:40 AM on May 23rd, 2007
Well, PCD, my history is actually documented by historians—that is, it doesn’t include myths or religious claims to land (if it did, I suppose we’d have to honor some of the religious claims to our own land).
My history comes from history books, not something that I vaguely remember from Sunday school. You really are poorly educated, aren’t you? I’ve said before that you should try reading a book or two before firing off an incoherent post. Just imagined if you actually said something smart!!!! We’d all be so impressed.
I’m still waiting on that bibliography.
May 23, 2007 - 07:55 AM on May 23rd, 2007
58, AKD, you are only saying that because you are hiding behind the anonymity of the Internet. You act like a classroom Hitler, but you did not make an argument, nor provide any citations of your own. It is clowns like you who cause trouble in the world and should be elimiated from it.
I learned about the Diaspora in High School, as well as Russian “Pogroms” that persecuted migrant Jews.
All you are doing is showing the shallowness of your education.
Not taking religious claims to land? YOU GOD DAMMED FOOL! WHAT DO YOU THINK ARAB CLAIMS ARE?????
May 23, 2007 - 08:18 AM on May 23rd, 2007
54- You really believe in such references, 2000-year old historic claims or unsecularized justification sources like the bible, right?
In that case we would have to undo the migration of nations, your country would have to be left to the indians and that damn-fucking heretic Sun would have to start to circle Earth [again]- the way it is supposed to be! AMEN!
Pack your bags, folks, PCD cleans up this messy world…
May 23, 2007 - 08:31 AM on May 23rd, 2007
60, “Mattias, you ignorant slut!” Religion isn’t always just made up. Ask your Imam about Abraham. He’ll admit he fathered Ismail and Isaac. The fight between Arabs and Jews is more than religious, it is a fight between step-families.
Neither you nor, AKD, have proven the Jews were not eveicted from their lands to begin with. You have not disproven that the Jewish Temple was built on the mount before the current Mosque. There is archaelogical proof of that. Oh, I forgot, AKD is only looking at books written by Louis Farrakhan. AND, you, Mattias are just pulling things out of your tucas or as the Poles say, your dupa.
May 23, 2007 - 08:49 AM on May 23rd, 2007
62- Yes..
..and when radical muslims justify their terror acts with the term “holy war” they are terrorists and when the Israelian government throws people out of their houses, they are misunderstood civilized democrats… It is always an excellent idea to justify your actions/claims with the “because we are the good guys”-attitude…
Besides, one could also make real anti-semite statements in the sense of “If the jews have a dedicated place to live, they should not stay anywhere else!”- assumed every idiot would read the bible as a cadastral register, like you do…
May 23, 2007 - 09:02 AM on May 23rd, 2007
62, Mattias, you are now arguing in circles. You are an ignorant slut. Watch Saturday Night Live to find the genesis of that appelation to you.
Mattias, you and AKD are so shallow in your education and thinking. It does not take much to put you both into a corner where you are reacting like spoiled babies in need of potty training and some real discipline.
You are superior to no one, not even a caveman.
May 23, 2007 - 09:18 AM on May 23rd, 2007
63. Before I actually recommened texts to you, PCD; I’d like to see some indication that you can read. Thus far, nothing.
The point wasn’t that the Jews didn’t at some point inhabit the region (though it was much longer ago than, say, the Native Americans inhabited the U.S.—though I haven’t heard you say much about their claims). Here’s what Matthias wrote originally:
A cure would be to stop Israel from importing settlers from the rest of the world, which banish muslims from the places where they were born! That is ethnic banishment: and I absolutely understand why the people to which this is done are “slightly”angry
This describes a contemporary process. You’re so busy waving a bible around that you haven’t even thought to respond to the fact that what’s being described is taking place in the present. Palestinian settlements are being demolished every day. The actual history of this process (which isn’t lost in the mists of time, as morons like you want to pretend) is well documented. I’ll recommend some books if you promise to struggle through just one of them and write me a short response. You can do it!!
Neither you nor, AKD, have proven the Jews were not eveicted from their lands to begin with. You have not disproven that the Jewish Temple was built on the mount before the current Mosque. There is archaelogical proof of that.
You’re talking about an event that occured thousands of years ago (and is debated by most historians) and trying to use it to prop up injustices that are happening in the present. Again, do you have any claim to your land? Or do the Native American’s who were evicted much more recently than the the second temple was destroyed have a right to see you evicted?
May 23, 2007 - 09:19 AM on May 23rd, 2007
P.S., PCD: Stick to entomology.
May 23, 2007 - 09:34 AM on May 23rd, 2007
AKD, again you are trying to be a classroom Hitler. You are dismissing any argument that you can’t refute. You are also saying that forget about Israel’s grievances. They don’t matter. People that Jordan disowned have precidence over Jews.
AKD, I am discussing facts. You are being like the Iranian President, Mr. Dinner Jacket, in dening that Israel has any legitimacy.
Also, You are being very disingenuous in your argumentation. Israel destroys houses of terrorists who were caught firing rockets into Israel. If I were an Israeli, I’d flatten the house with the people in it for firing rockets into my home.
AKD, we see your hate for Israel coming out. You will take any crackpot’s, like David Duke, dispute to Israel’s legitimacy and right to exist as Gospel. Well pushing the Israelis into the sea won’t solve anything, except your hate of Israel.
May 23, 2007 - 09:37 AM on May 23rd, 2007
55- maybe Sarkozy can do better, but I doubt it. Not one to actually take the time to study a subject before you spew…This has been Sarkozys’ area for some time now!
May 23, 2007 - 09:39 AM on May 23rd, 2007
PCD, the only “source” you’ve claimed (not cited, mind you, just claimed) is the bible. This is already a warning sign.
My refutation of your “argument” is that you’re trying to use events that (may have) occured thousands of years ago as a defense of contemporary injustices. I’m asking about Native American land claims because, if you’re going to be at all consistent in your line of argumentation, it seems that you should accept that they have a legitimate claim to your property.
No one suggested “pushing the Israelis into the sea,” you idiot. Did you even read the previous posts?
May 23, 2007 - 09:43 AM on May 23rd, 2007
No one suggested “pushing the Israelis into the sea,”you idiot. Did you even read the previous posts?
Really? I’m pretty sure it has been suggested…I’d be careful who you call an idiot AKD, cause you are a gene short of intelligence.
May 23, 2007 - 09:45 AM on May 23rd, 2007
Which of the posters suggested pushing the Israelis into the sea, Peejz? I don’t think that there are any right-wing nuts like David Duke posting here.
May 23, 2007 - 09:49 AM on May 23rd, 2007
68, AKD, you are a bleeding idiot. The North American Indians were semi-nomadic and pushed other off of coveted lands. Only thing is PC professors don’t cover that subject. I had an Indian for a professor who kept asking an Oneida Chief in our class why his tribe kept beating the crap out of the Professor’s tribe. The Oneida, Stanley, answered, “Because it was fun!”
Right now, AKD, you are the idiot. You are back peddling with the use of weasel words for events YOU don’t accept. Let’s see your CV and your bibliography before you are accepted as any kind of expert.
May 23, 2007 - 09:53 AM on May 23rd, 2007
70, The truth hurts, AKD. You really do wish to see the Israelis pushed into the sea. You have supported Hammas, AlQaeda, and Hezbollah the entire time you’ve been causing trouble here. They have been openly calling for the complete destruction of Israel, and Hammas has gone as far as recruiting kids to be suicide bombers.
Peejz, if AKD dares say that this isn’t so, he should be banned until he apologizes and cites the numerous posts here on the subject.
May 23, 2007 - 09:57 AM on May 23rd, 2007
The North American Indians were semi-nomadic and pushed other off of coveted lands. Only thing is PC professors don’t cover that subject.
Some were, some weren’t. Those that were still stayed within a definable region. Any group whose livelihood revolves as much around hunting as cultivation is going to move some. Only thing is, people without anything resembling a real college education don’t realize this fact.
So, any group that is semi-nomadic doesn’t get to make land claims? Hmmmmm. Who does that exclude?
Once I’ve seen evidence that you’ve read even one book on the topics that you try (embarassingly) to hold court on, I’ll consider your “arguments” as something more than the rantings of some dumb kid who should have studied rather than huffing paint.
May 23, 2007 - 10:03 AM on May 23rd, 2007
73, AKD, if you knew anything, you’d know that Indians did not have a system of land ownership. This is something the Eurpeans imported. Yes, the British, French, Spanish, and Russians to name a few.
It is apparent that your facade of enlightenment is falling apart. The viscious anti-Israel hate your have is showing. The far left rantings you glean form campus coffee clubs is your education. You wish you were educated, not just a poseur.
May 23, 2007 - 10:10 AM on May 23rd, 2007
AKD, if you knew anything, you’d know that Indians did not have a system of land ownership.
The early Israelis who you’re citing to prop up your argument didn’t either. The nation state as we know it didn’t exist until fairly recently. Dispossesion doesn’t just mean that someone takes your land despite the fact that you have a deed, you idiot; it means that you’re forced off of your homeland.
You still haven’t responded to:
1) The fact that by your same logic, native americans have more of a claim to your land than you do (for the simple reason that ther claim goes back farther).
2)The fact that you’re using the bible as your only means of supporting the notion that an injustice that may have happened thousands of years ago justifies injustice in the present.
Pathetic.
May 23, 2007 - 11:24 AM on May 23rd, 2007
75, AKD, you are the one cutting and running from the central point. You are claiming the Israeli Jews were never forced off their land. You are being an absolute jerk in claiming I’m only using the Bible. You are not coming forth with your own slanted propaganda pieces, just your arrogance to state else wise, and then shifting the focus on your pro-terrorist views.
You tell us why terrorists have a right to rocket and suicide bomb Israel.
Come on, come out of the closet you Jew hater.
May 23, 2007 - 11:44 AM on May 23rd, 2007
You are claiming the Israeli Jews were never forced off their land.
In the 20th or 21st centuries, no Israeli Jew has been.
You are being an absolute jerk in claiming I’m only using the Bible.
I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt; you haven’t even demonstrated that you’ve read it.
You are not coming forth with your own slanted propaganda pieces, just your arrogance to state else wise, and then shifting the focus on your pro-terrorist views.
If you provide me some with actual evidence, I’d be happy to knock it down. Thus far, you haven’t.
You tell us why terrorists have a right to rocket and suicide bomb Israel.
Show me where I said this.
Come on, come out of the closet you Jew hater.
Nothing that I’ve said suggests that I dislike Jews. Do you hate Native American’s because you don’t recognize their claim to your land? My wife’s Jewish and she feels the same way about the situation in Israel as I do. So does most of her family. Like the great majority of Jews, she and her family also vote democrat (I guess that they know that no minority has ever been able to trust the right, no matter how much the right pretends to be on their side).
You have to be the biggest joke on this website.
May 23, 2007 - 11:58 AM on May 23rd, 2007
You are claiming the Israeli Jews were never forced off their land.
In the 20th or 21st centuries, no Israeli Jew has been.
Again, you are changing the terms of the debate to fit your little totaulogy. You know damn well the Jews were forced off their land, and you are just another terrorist’s apologist in not recognizing it.
You are being an absolute jerk in claiming I’m only using the Bible.
I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt; you haven’t even demonstrated that you’ve read it.
Again, you are just running your mouth. You are just another asshole like shiloh. He hated Israeli Jews, too. I’m beginning to really think you are shitto under another name.
You are not coming forth with your own slanted propaganda pieces, just your arrogance to state else wise, and then shifting the focus on your pro-terrorist views.
If you provide me some with actual evidence, I’d be happy to knock it down. Thus far, you haven’t.
Again, you’ve done nothing but spew terrorists’ propaganda with out any citations.
You tell us why terrorists have a right to rocket and suicide bomb Israel.
Show me where I said this.
You are saying it with your refusal to recognize Israel’s right to exist where it is and to exist in peace. Quit trying to change the subject.
Come on, come out of the closet you Jew hater.
Nothing that I’ve said suggests that I dislike Jews. Do you hate Native American’s because you don’t recognize their claim to your land? My wife’s Jewish and she feels the same way about the situation in Israel as I do. So does most of her family. Like the great majority of Jews, she and her family also vote democrat (I guess that they know that no minority has ever been able to trust the right, no matter how much the right pretends to be on their side).
Again, anecdotal evidence with no source for verification. Next you will tell us you are Black, Hispanic, or whatever you think will give you a moral shield to protect you from criticism. Forget it booby. We don’t buy that crap here.
May 23, 2007 - 12:33 PM on May 23rd, 2007
Again, you are changing the terms of the debate to fit your little totaulogy. You know damn well the Jews were forced off their land, and you are just another terrorist’s apologist in not recognizing it.
Um, you should probably look up “Tautology.” I stand by what I said: “In the 20th or 21st centuries, no Israeli Jew has been” forced off of his land.
Again, you are just running your mouth. You are just another asshole like shiloh. He hated Israeli Jews, too. I’m beginning to really think you are shitto under another name.
Again, dumbass, you can question the tactics of a state without hating of the people who inhabit it. Are you honestly too stupid to understand the difference?
You are saying it with your refusal to recognize Israel’s right to exist where it is and to exist in peace.
Show me where I said that Israel doesn’t have a right to exist. I favor a two state option, as do many Jews (including Israeli Jews) because they realize that this is the only way for Israel to survive. If Israel wants to exist in peace, it will have to make compromises.
Again, anecdotal evidence with no source for verification. Next you will tell us you are Black, Hispanic, or whatever you think will give you a moral shield to protect you from criticism.
That’s fine. There are online statistics describing the percentage of Jews who vote democrat and favor a two-state compromise.. I promise not to tell you that I’m black and hispanic. My family came over from Ireland in the late 19th century, and you can hold me to that.
You still haven’t answered any of my questions, loser. You’re kind of boring to argue with. You freak out, use a lot of capital letters and boldface, but say almost nothing. At least Snowy Egret has a funny name; you’re not good for much of anything.
It’s people like you who are ruining America. I really wish that you’d leave my country. If other Americans sink to the same level of uneducated protoplasm as you, then the terrorists truly will have won.
May 23, 2007 - 12:41 PM on May 23rd, 2007
AKD, you are such a liar and you have proven it here. You are the one who should be shipped out to Darfur or some other shooting range where human debris like you get a quick education on real life before the people you support with your rhetoric ends it.
Also, you don’t know anything about Israel. In 1948, Israeli Jews were forced off their lands in front of the Arab final solution. Only fools like you who are so quick to appease the real evil in the world refuse to see the facts.
Also, you refuse to acknowledge that Israeli Jews were in the area first.
You are a lying loser.
May 23, 2007 - 01:02 PM on May 23rd, 2007
In 1948, Israeli Jews were forced off their lands in front of the Arab final solution. Only fools like you who are so quick to appease the real evil in the world refuse to see the facts.
Are you actually trying to describe the Arab-Israeli War? Again, read a book or two.
Also, you refuse to acknowledge that Israeli Jews were in the area first.
The modern state of Israel didn’t exist until the 1940s. It came into being as the result of a series of European mandates As for the policies that I’m not fond of: In 2005, Israel’s own interior minister Ophir Pines-Paz admitted that the country’s policy toward its Arab citizens has always been one of “institutional discrimination.” This is basically apartheid. I’m against it; unsurprisingly, given that you seem to be a horrible person, you support it (or maybe you’re just too ignorant to even know what it means).
You’ve shown no indication that you even understand what I mean by a two state option: big surprise.
Do you ever win an argument, PCD. Or do you always just embarass yourself.
May 23, 2007 - 01:10 PM on May 23rd, 2007
AKD, Actually I’ve read several. As usual you pur out your opinion as fact. Israeli Jews occupied the west bank, the Gaza Strip and other lands outside the 1948 borders. You are the dolt that refuses to accept that.
I know there are Jews that don’t accept Zionism, too, as well as Reform Jews who reject orthodoxy because they don’t want to be burdened by following Jewish law.
You keep dodging and weaving, adding new subjects as you get pushed off others when your opinions are not accepted as fact, or you get called on changing facts to suit your position, like arguing artificaillay only after 1900. That is the hallmark of a weasel loser who has lost before and will continue to lose as long as you, AKD, can control the debate. Well, asshole, you can’t control it here. It is called the court of public opinion, not AKD’s kangaroo court of appeasement.
May 23, 2007 - 03:10 PM on May 23rd, 2007
PCD,
you’re primary argument so far is that jews were in the Israel region a long time ago before any muslim (or christian) was. Well, regarding the fact that the jewish people/religion existed already some thousand years before Christ and it took yet another 700 years until Islam was “founded” it is not really difficult to assume that jewish people were present in that area (before anybody else). Also it is not unlikely that some of the muslims in Israel are descendants of converted jews who lived in the same region.
But I wonder why you take that as a reason to promote a jewish claim on the Israel region. The bible is the christian holy book. If it was ever used to promote some claim to people, then it would be “make the whole world christians -> banish all non-believers!”. So the only message you could see in the description of the pre-christian history would be, that this was the state it used to be- but no concept for the present or the future… (or are you a lukewarm christian believer :neutral
The crusades and various other radical christian stupidities/cruelties were based upon such way of bible interpretation!
May 23, 2007 - 03:44 PM on May 23rd, 2007
82. PCD. Still no arguments, huh? Sad.
May 23, 2007 - 04:18 PM on May 23rd, 2007
How did this topic get from illegal aliens to the Jewish/Palestinian conflict?
May 23, 2007 - 05:03 PM on May 23rd, 2007
85-
I mention that those immigrants which came to the US from my country during the independence war may have found the NRA
->
Somebody mentioned on the Gun/NRA topic that it is nice in Israel that teachers may carry guns to prevent terror assaults
->
I proposed that it was better to solve the cause of the situation than treating symptons
->
Which led to the question what was the cause for the problems in Israel…
…PCD thinks, it is because those ignorant muslims refuse to read the Bible and its commonly accepted legal claims…
May 23, 2007 - 06:17 PM on May 23rd, 2007
Matthias my people came here in 1635 some long before I know who married who and some are Native Americans going back 10,000 years the people who are coming here now hate this nation and love that so called third world life and ideals, Bush is one of the oligarchs families who have always hated the ideals of Laws under the bill of rights just look at his family and ask why he hates us so much. all of his boys are married into mexican oligarchs and third world ruler families and all hate our freedoms, the linega of bush is a history of total Treason and racism against all people.
Long Live the ideals of 1776 by the way Israel is part of the USA For political reason, the Muslims never played the game right so that Group will be removed, see people its all a game of evil doers.
Listen to Savage Nation.
May 23, 2007 - 10:10 PM on May 23rd, 2007
when the rats sign the evil amnesty bill it will be the end of the USA Ask why? the system pigs want us to be just like any-other third world hell, so why fight in Iraq? why pay Tax’s why follow Laws? if the pigs think “We the People are nothing” why not start showing the pigs what we can do? but NO ONE of you will do anything but write and talk up the line BS, hey people it is the doonsday hell but most will start to act like its nothing and move on with your Mexican Friends! most of you will look at your kids and hope for the best until your kids are beaten to death in a school or raped for being a non Hispanic or not saying the right political line in school so get in line and say “yes”, to the evil doers in this low life government of drug dealers, and watch some more T.V. Show’s Its good for you to watch some nice fiction or listen to some political pig do a little fabrication it will help you in the end game. And may God help you all.
May 24, 2007 - 02:21 AM on May 24th, 2007
Are the last two posts intended to be serious?
May 24, 2007 - 02:23 AM on May 24th, 2007
87,88-
Hi Fred,
I am completely confused on what you want to tell me or which political pattern you might fit into (but that might be a language problem from my side).
However I saw your myspace-page and I liked it (Can somebody who refers to W.Shatner & Star Trek be completely bad/wrong?). If you weren’t there you had to be invented!!
Live long & prosper,
Matthias
PS: By the way… do you have the phone number of “Lillian”
May 24, 2007 - 06:42 AM on May 24th, 2007
90, Mattias, you are a P’Tok.
AKD, you are just a jerk who over estimates his own worth and debating value. You’ve offered nothing but conceit and arrogance. Go live your valueless lifestyle elsewhere.
May 25, 2007 - 04:11 AM on May 25th, 2007
91. PCD, I do wish that you’d get out of my country. As I’ve mentioned, uneducated morons like you are hurting America.
May 25, 2007 - 06:40 AM on May 25th, 2007
92, AKD, you arrogant ASS, it is not your country. Go to Zimbabwe. See first hand what your “solutions” bring about.
May 26, 2007 - 08:57 AM on May 26th, 2007
MATTHIAS Just pointing out the system is coming apart over this evil and insane plan of so called Amnesty its not about people it’s about evil doers making a world of total population enslavement of all people.
read Alex Jones listen to the savgae nation, but what the hell most people want to be inside the third world hell of total corruption, and it maybe fun to watch the fools do each other like dogs.
May 27, 2007 - 08:05 PM on May 27th, 2007
Watch HBO, “Bury my heart at wounded knee”, you may need the info on how to live inside a hispanic drug country being run by evil pigs from mexico city. we can only hope for a mass nuke attack that will end the take over before the drug dealers get WMD To use on each other drug kingdoms.
May 28, 2007 - 07:10 PM on May 28th, 2007
Enough with the name calling…
June 19, 2007 - 06:33 AM on June 19th, 2007
I Love you girls
Buy
June 20, 2007 - 03:24 AM on June 20th, 2007
This is so much fun can’t wait until the system start picking-people-up for the camp system, “what fun that will be watching you guy’s yell this can’t be happening in MY LAND OF FREEDOM”, make cell’s of freedom now!:grin:
June 22, 2007 - 12:26 PM on June 22nd, 2007
Hello, my name is Anna! As you can probably tell, I’m a Christian woman who loves Jesus Christ and cares for all humans, even the wicked. What you probably don’t know is that I’m hot. My picture below isn’t really that good. I want to use my beauty for GOD, and want to encourage Christian women (my sisters in Christ) to do the same, according to the Great Commission.
My homepage
June 22, 2007 - 01:29 PM on June 22nd, 2007
#99 Hello spAmNNA,
Yes we can tell right off you are a Christian woman! And your link goes to what? A site that will upload spyware or malware? Oh goody!
June 22, 2007 - 01:32 PM on June 22nd, 2007
Listen to Savage Nation.
I urge all the liberals to tune in daily to “The Savage Nation!”
July 8, 2007 - 03:41 PM on July 8th, 2007
<strong>Bukakke</strong>
If there is one blog I read always is this one, I can only think and dream about explaining my ideas on the level you do.
July 10, 2007 - 10:01 PM on July 10th, 2007
[...] has no mercy, The World According to Carl, Blue Star Chronicles, Pirate’s Cove, Right Voices, and The Yankee Sailor, thanks to Linkfest Haven [...]
January 9, 2008 - 03:40 PM on January 9th, 2008
Munyaneza defence starts their case
… the first person to be charged under Canada’s War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity Act. “This is very hard