They sought job security, and they feel that striking is the way to accomplish this?
UAW members started picketing at Hamtramck, Lansing and Orion and other locations when the union’s 11 a.m. deadline for a new labor agreement with General Motors Corp. passed.
This is by far, the worst thing that the union could have done.
The AP reports that:
The UAW hasn’t called a nationwide strike during contract negotiations since 1976, when Ford Motor Co. plants were shut down. There were strikes at two GM plants during contract negotiations in 1996.
Charlie Coppinger, who has worked at GM’s powertrain plant in Warren for 31 years, walked the picket line along with a handful of others shortly after the deadline passed.
The 51-year-old Rochester Hills resident said he hoped a strike could be settled quickly, but that union members were on the line to back the union and its bargainers.
“We’re just here to support them,” said Coppinger, who said leaflets were passed out indicating that the strike was on.
If the Big Three, and I use that term jokingly, hope to survive, the unions need to go.
This is one way to cure over production of cars.
They have a sixty day supply at the assembly plants and all suppliers are required to have 60-90 day supplies on hand. This kills the supplier, and it is unacceptable. I say bust the unions. I know that in Michigan, there are 1000′s of unemployed people that would jump at the chance to work for the auto makers.
Pam, I am no fan of union goons. You are right in that the unions are killing the Auto companies.
If, in fact, the goal was to assure that jobs wouldn’t leave, is this a smart way to go about securing it? I just talked to hubbies aunt, at GM retiree..she is beside herself.
Her thoughts:
1. She retired with a package, and they are obligated to meet the standards of the package that they gave her in 1988. I agree with her.
2. If GM negotiated certain things in the contract, they are obligated to meet their obligations. No question about that from me.
3. GM needs to stop negotiating any further contracts. It can not predict the future and the unions are killing their ability to reclaim the market. Hell, we aren’t even sure where the auto industry is going at this point.
As I have shared in the past, Auntie worked at GM for 30 years and saw alot. She said that the only time she ever saw a benefit to the union, was when she was expected to operate in a supervisory position. She had ranking senority on the floor, yet many men made a great deal more than her. She had to fight the union to have them help her fight GM on this point.
Personally, I support unions. They are a careful check against abuse of employees by large corporations.
That said they must be legitimate and not overbearing, with the employyes’ interest in mind. Unfortunately, many unions have abused their power and do not have the interest of the employees in mind.
In 2007, what abuse and what large corporation?
Pam,
Before you get into semantics, remember that abuse does not have to mean against the law and is subjective.
Folks who are true free marketer (me included) understand that unions are part of ther free market, because employment is part of that free market. One can leave and re-hire for employment. Corporations com pete against each other in a free market, and employees are included in that. Union are a part of that, as employees use unions to best leverage their skills in that free market.
That said, the existance of unions have generally prevent these abuses by corporations. They are responsible for the 40 hour work week and overtime, as well as many basic employee rights.
An example? Okay.
In the last 4-5 years, Wal-Mart has restructered their employment standards. Hourly Wal-Mart employees are on a 7 tier hourly standard. As one is promoted from tier to tier, they get a standard raise. There was also no pay cap.
Jobs descriptions at Wal-Mart were dissolved, then similar jobs were recreated but place two tier below where they originally were. Folks were forced to re-interview for thier same position and rehired at a lesser rate, sometime with a pay cap becasue they had been there as loyal employees for years but because of their current pay they could no longer get raises.
If Wal-mart were unionized, this would never have happen.
7, Ted, what do unions bring to the bargaining table? What unions bring is the threat to strike. Not any other benefit to the employer like competant employees or employees with more certified abilities and training than the company can hire off the street.
7- We’ve argued about Wal-Mart in the past..so let’s take that down another path…GM employees are unionized..are all the current employees working under the exact same contract conditions or are there multiple conditions based on employment dates? I am specifically referring to wages/benefits..
8.
“Not any other benefit to the employer…”
That’s not their job. Their job is to bring benefits to the employees. Employees use unions to best leverage their skills in that free market- completely part of the dynamic of a true free market.
Granted, not all unions do what they are supposed to- they have political goals in mind.
“7- We’ve argued about Wal-Mart in the past..”
You asked me for an example Pam, and I gave you one I am intimate with.
As far as the direction you want to take it- not all unions do their job, which is protect employee’s intrest. I am not intimate with the contractual intricacies of GM’s Union contract so I am unable to answer your question.
10, Ted, I KNOW unions do not care if the kill the company they negotiate with. I can offer bygone companies that the unions have killed. Does killing the company you work for benefit the employee?
11- Actually you didn’t as there was nothing illegal about what Wal-Mart did, and legalities are integrel to the arguement. You provided an example of where you wished a union could have helped a situation that you weren’t happy about.
You claimed that if there were a union at Wal-Mart, that would not have happened. You can’t prove that arguement, but the GM contracts do much to disprove the statement.
10- If bringing something to the company is not their job, then they have long past their usefulness. A partnership can’t be one sided and survive.
12.
It’s not the concern ofg the union the welfare of the company, just as most corporations do not concern themselves with the welfare of the employees.
Per post 6:
“In 2007, what abuse and what large corporation?”
Abuse does not have to concern legalities. It was once legal to employ 12 year old on 60 hour work weeks. As I said in post 7 before this discussion went underway:
“Before you get into semantics, remember that abuse does not have to mean against the law and is subjective.”
What the unions do are legal also, so does that mean it is okay with you?
I fullfilled your question- I provided an example of abuse. You did not ask for an example that broke the law. However, if you take a cursory look at Wal-mart’s history you can find that also.
Corporations do concern themselves with employees…They worry about making that payroll everyweek, they worry about making sure that the doors remain open, they worry about the safety of the employees, even when the employee is not.
15- key word being once was legal, but it isn’t any longer is it? So yes Ted, legalities do play into the arguement. Abuse would need to be an illegality, not something that you don’t like.
Is what okay with me?
14, Without the company, there are no jobs, no payroll, no taxes paid, no “Administrative fees” for the union, too.
Ted, you are most welcome to tell former workers of the Dubuque Pack that the union bleeding the company dry really helped them, that is if you can find one still in town.
Just proves how corupt and crinimal these labor unions have become:-l
“Corporations do concern themselves with employees:They worry about making that payroll everyweek, they worry about making sure that the doors remain open, they worry about the safety of the employees, even when the employee is not.”
Granted with a few exceptions, but most only do so because it is legislated that they must do so.
“Abuse would need to be an illegality, not something that you don’t like.”
No, it doesn’t. Abuse does not have to be illegal. If so, at will employment laws that are legal in Ohio would be abusive in California, simply becasue in one place it is legal and the other it is not.
“Ted, you are most welcome to tell former workers of the Dubuque Pack that the union bleeding the company dry really helped them, that is if you can find one still in town.”
It is not the unions fault that Dubuque Pack could not survive in the freemarket.
If the union was not representing the employees correctly, it is the responsibility of the employees to change that.
“Just proves how corupt and crinimal these labor unions have become.”
I agree 100%. But like elections, it is the onus of the people to keep these folks in line.
21- Ted, in a perfect world the employees could have changed some things, but alas this isn’t. It is the job of the union to look out for the employee. That is what these employees pay dues for…if the unions actions cause a business to fold and employees to become unemployeed, then the union failed and shame on the employee for putting their trust into them. These employees that are involved in the unions are not always granted a say in how things operate…collective bargaining translates to mean a team of a few will speak for the many.
There are good and bad unions. My dad spent 25 years working as a United Mine Workers of America coal miner. Sometimes the union was good (it got the miners decent pay and benefits) other times it was bad (it kept employers from paying employees with seniority more than what their job classification required (Dad ran the electrical lines for the underground trains and despite his seniority couldn’t transfer to a higher paying position because he was the only one who could do it. The company foreman would try to pay him at a higher pay rate, but caught hell from the union whenever the shop foreman would catch him doing it.).
The UAW basically bankrupted Colt firearms manufacturing. In 2000, the most recognized corporate name in the world had to cease production on all but two of its models. The reason was that due to an ongong threat of striking machinists from the UAW, the company hadn’t been able to modernize its facilities to the point of being able to produce all of its product lines economically. With the market being what it is, hand milled firearms components could not be competitively priced with ones produced using investment castings or CNC machining. ANY attempt at modernization was met with stiff resistance from the UAW. As a result instead of working in a more modern facility producing quality merchandise, a majority of the workforce were laid off.
Many of the trade unions do provide training to to employees through their apprenticeship programs. It is an excellent way for an individual with no skills or money to get into a trade with paid training, benefits and retirement benefits. Now the bad news about trade unions. In many cities they are linked to and frequently act like the mafia. They have been known to shut down and/or vandalize jobsites that are using non union labor. In major cities with strong trade unions, expect to pay 20% more for union labor than in right to work states. You will in all probability get good workers, but you are going to have all aspects on how many and how much you are going to pay dictated to you. Some of the union contracts are insanely lucrative. I knew a union pipefitter in the mid 80s who would go to Nuclear power plant sites and only work the weekends. His base for hot nuke plants was $32/hour for the first 8 hours on a weekday, $48/hour for the next two hours on weekdays or the first 10 hours on Saturdays, and $64/hour for any hour over 10 on weekdays and Saturdays, or any hour worked on Sunday. He worked one power plant that was so hot that they worked 4 on, 4 on call, and 4 off, but they had to stay in a bunk room on site so they got paid for 24 hours/day. He made more in 3 days over a weekend than I made managing a retail store in a month.
“Ted, in a perfect world the employees could have changed some things, but alas this isn’t.”
Kind of like politics? In a perfect world members of the parties could give us legitimate candidates whose concern was the people and not the parties and the special interests they serve? But alas this isn’t?
Bull. The issue is complacency of the people. Like the government, the people are supposed to have the actual power. However, they fail to be responsible and allow those grouip to wrest power from them.
“if the unions actions cause a business to fold and employees to become unemployeed, then the union failed.”
No- in a free market that is the norm. Businesses fold daily for various reasons, and new one rise. It is the nature of the free market, and union are an important part of said free market.
After all, if the scenario you describe plays out and a business fold because of a union then by your standards that is legal, thus okay.
Even if it is abusive. :-\”
“Thus okay?” How did you come up with me saying that? Businesses should rid themselves of the union, which is legal, prior to closing the door…that is what should happen.
#5…very wise of you, Ted.
Unions look out for their workers.
Management couldn’t care less.
27, SFL, you are a fool. The unions are leaches that kill jobs. They never care about the worker, just themselves, the mob, and their Democrat donations.
FAO….years ago my father had a run in with employees in a union. He had a wife and 4 children to feed and couldn’t afford not to work but he had the crap kicked out of him once and he was threatened by strikers every day he went to work. Only once was he hospitalized but he hated unions ever since.
27- unions look out for their dues.
What mob PCD;) The mob has nothing to do with them:d
31, Yeah, sure, when uncle vito comes to town to collect the kneecaps of workers who cross picket lines, everyone says, “What mob?”
I am really sick of union goons. Teamsters 421 here in Dubuque has a President who put his electoral rival in the hospital before a vote for this union local presidency. And people wonder why I have no respect for unions.
Maybe I should tell you how 421 brought organizers in from Chicago to support Dick Gephardt and also to bully workers at Eagle Window and Glass to vote in their union to represent them. You don’t see that in the biased press.
32-You know PCD, many people seem to forget that when David Chase created the Sopranos, it was a reflection of the life he saw…mobsters were put on the payroll for storylines….As silly as the example sounds, it is a reflection of our dockworkers unions, trade unions etc.,..everyone gets a piece of the pie.
“”Thus okay?”How did you come up with me saying that? Businesses should rid themselves of the union, which is legal, prior to closing the door:that is what should happen.”
Then you are going to have to clarify your defintion of abuse for me.
If a business folds due to a legal union negotiation, is the union abusing the business? It is legal aftr all. According to your own defition above when applied to employees, abuse must involve being illegal. Ir would appear that you are not applying the same standard to employees as you do business.
I am simply wanting you to apply the same standard to employees that you do business. I don’t care which way you go, I just would like consistancy.
“#5:very wise of you, Ted.
Unions look out for their workers.
Management couldn’t care less.”
No- this is speaking in absolutes and I don’t agree.
In a perfect world, that is the job of the union, but this doesn’t always occur.
And yes- most corporations do not care about employees, but that isn’t in teir nature. Their job is to make a profit, just like it is a lion’s job to kill a zebra to eat.
But these both occur in a truly free market. Employees are perfectly justified to unionize in order to leverage their collective job skills for the best possible pay just as much as a corportation can fire an employee for breaking a rule.
Abuse by a corporation would be cutting off insurance with no notice, or not making the payroll of all employees, or firing a person because of their race,gender, or sexual preferece. Abuse would be just closing the doors with no notice to employee. Abuse would be changing coprporate policies without notice/explanation to employees.
The same standards don’t apply to the employees that apply to the employer.
“SFL, you are a fool.”
—————-
PCD, you’re an idiot.
There.
Did that help make my point better?
No? Oh, well then why do you think it works for you?
Probably because you’re fucking retarded.
I mean, that’s just my guess.
Honestly, most people who object to Unions are secretly JEALOUS of the benefits, wages and protections they provide their members.
Try joining a union, and we’ll see how you feel a year down the road.
How much do the union bosses make relative to the average union employee?
Here are some links of interest:
ONLINE DATABASE REVEALS TOP PAY (2002 so kinda old)
Organized Crime in the USA (La Cosa Nostra)~cases involving labor unions
BonBon, you’re dad was lucky. Coal Miners weren’t known for beating people up. They were known for shooting at people.
SFL, I can honestly tell you that Dad hated the Union most of the time. He hated having to be out of work for weeks on end because some moron at the mine did something stupid and the union called a strike to get the idiot his job back. That included occasions when the incident involved the moron doing something that put other miners’ lives at risk. Sometimes the strike would be because someone at another mine did something stupid so some idiot at his mine would decide that they would go out on strike in sympathy. It was not unusual for there to be half a dozen one to two week strikes in the 12 months leading up to the end of the contract. This meant that when the contract expired, he had no savings to pay bills for as long as it took for the contract to be resolved. One contract took 4 months negotiate.
“The same standards don’t apply to the employees that apply to the employer.”
In a free market, they absolutely do.
For example, in an at will employment state, my employer can terminate employment at any time without notice and so can the employee.
“Abuse by a corporation would be cutting off insurance with no notice”.
“Abuse would be changing coprporate policies without notice/explanation to employees.”
So now I am confused, because this is perfectly legal for a corporation to do in many states. Last year in the end of November, my company change policy without notice, telling us that we were no longer allowed to carry over vacation to the next year and we had to use it or loose it in the last month. Many lost it because their superviors would not approve the vacation request.
42- Ted, the example you gave may in fact be illegal. At will does not give an employer the right to do whatever they wish to do. There are guidlines for both the employer and the employee and it seems to me, the example given could be challenged under the fairness doctrine, as well as contractual obligation, of At-will laws.
Employer allowed accrued vacation time. Employees have banked time based on said policy. Company sets new policy that is not practical for employer or employee. Was the company able to grant every employees time off request and still be able to operate? I doubt it. The time was pay banked and you can’t screw with pay legally.
MI is at will as well. My sister’s employer changed their policy as well. When the policy went into effect, the employees were paid for the banked time because it was cash sitting in limbo…In order to stay within the law, the company had to pay the employees this money,or banked time. They were proactive, whereas, it appears your company seems to think they can do what they want and wait to be challenged….
As an addendum, my sister’s company allows employee to bank time, but if not used by end of fiscal year, the money is paid to employee. They are legally allowed to not have carry-over….key being, the time must be paid for.
Pam I think you are right. That vacation is earned; they can’t just make it go away without compensation.
They must be evil, mean-spirited selfish Republicans!:o This yet another reason to vote for the Poeple’s Party, the Democratic Party! Because they care! Because they are fighting for the common man, the little guy, the poor, the oppressed, the disenfranchised! :d/
They are clean, pure, standing up against the Republican culture of corruption! If they take lobby money, it is ONLY to keep it out of the corrupt hands of the Republicans!
=))
“Was the company able to grant every employees time off request and still be able to operate? I doubt it. The time was pay banked and you can’t screw with pay legally.”
The answer to your question is that they simply lost the vacation time and was not compensated.
I know- because I was one of them. I lost 3 days paid vacation. But it was legal for them to do, but fallls under your classification of abuse.
No Ted, it isn’t legal for them to do that, that is what I am trying to tell you. You and your fellow employees need to get with the labor board..that’s free…they are there for you as well as employers. Ted, they took a paycheck from you. There is nothing legal about that.
State of Ohio says otherwise- vacation isn’t banked pay.
In addition to the Federally issued Fairness DOctrine, most states have their own. In Ohio’s case, it is implemented aspart of the ORC.
What they did was legal under Ohio Law.
Ted, I just talked to the labor board of Ohio, 1-614-644-2239…You do have a claim in small claims court..they can change their policy, but they can’t take your pay. If you and some of the other employees band together, it may be worth it for you to go to court. You may be able to handle the case on your own actually, but one way or the other, you were done wrong by the company.
P.S. I used a hypothetical situation when speaking to them, I did not state any names….
My scenario was that I work for a company that had a policy in place that allowed employees to accrue vacation time and carry it from year to year..In November of 2006, the company changed policy and told employees to use it or lose it by December 31, 2006. Employer could not or would not grant all employees their requests, therefore I lost 3 days pay….
Gal who hold phonetoo close to mouth said small claims court, go to small claims court..you have a case there…they can’t take that time.