Bryan linked to the crime committed by Heliberto Chi . Chi is at the center of the latest attempt to take the death penalty off the books, as he is suing on the basis that the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment:
In 2001, Armand Paliotta was working at the K&G Men’s Superstore in southwest Arlington. Chi had worked at the store as an assistant tailor, but had been fired, former employees said.
The young man stopped by the store twice on March 24, according to court documents. During his first visit, he chatted with some of the employees, stayed about 30 minutes, then left.
He returned as Paliotta and two other employees were ready to leave for the night. Chi told them that he was missing his wallet, which he might have left in the store when he had stopped by earlier, said Adrian Riojas, who had started working at the store seven months earlier.
Paliotta let him inside to look.
Chi went to the back of the store, then returned and asked whether he could stay to search for it, Riojas said. Paliotta he would have to come back the next day, Riojas said.
Chi then pulled out a handgun and told the employees to get back inside the store, Riojas said. As the three employees tried to escape, running in different directions, Chi shot Paliotta in the back. Then he found Riojas in the storeroom and shot him.
Chi couldn’t find the third employee, a woman, and left in a getaway car driven by Hugo Alejandro Sierra, who is serving a life sentence for his role in the killing.
At first, Riojas said he felt hot. He pulled off his blood-covered jacket and thought, “I don’t feel anything, how could I be shot?” He took off his shirt, touched the bullet wound and then ran to the phone to call 911. An operator was on the line; the female employee had already dialed.
The SCOTUS is refusing to hear the case, but through his lawyers, they are attempting to make an international incident out of this! How is that you ask?
Did I mention that Chi is a Honduran national ?
Jay: “This is the avenue to do away with all death sentences. It opens up a big can of worms, especially if it is successful. Is it time to go back to the firing squads?”
This won’t end the executions, but it will put them off for the short term.
There are Zero, none, nada, Nyet. The last one that held any water was the possibility of a mistake. The introduction of DNA analysis has eliminated that.
There are none to YOU…
But there are plenty to those who disagree, and especially to those who have already banned the barbaric practice from their nations.
The most important being the moral issue, for starters.
There’s really no use “debating” it, as people are either for or against and can’t really be talked out of it one way or another.
It’s really up to the judges and the lawmakers.
Like Abortion.
Leftists don’t have morals. Next?
“The most important being the moral issue, for starters.”
Legislating morals? I thought the left as against this, and on their view it is what is wrong with the conservatives?
“It’s really up to the judges and the lawmakers.”
Exactly, and they’ve ruled the death penalty as neither cruel or unlawful.
Actually Matthias, a long rope and a long drop results in the person’s head being ripped off. AKA Saddam’s Henchman. A Short rope with a long drop wherein the knot is placed at the side of the neck snaps the neck and death is nearly instantaneous. That is what happens when the sentence is “Death by Hanging”. What you describe is what happens when the knot in the rope is placed at the back of the neck and death is caused by asphyxiation which has been recorded to take as long as 19 minutes, both of which are still shorter than the roughly 30 minutes that the current injection system takes. Placing the knot at the back of the neck and causing death via asphyxiation is the penalty that is called “Hang by the neck until dead.” There is a LEGAL distinction between the two. To my knowledge, Delaware is the only state that has executed anyone via the gallows in 30 years. It hadn’t been done in so long that they had to search for the information on how to do it correctly. They ended up using information from an US Army technical manual dating from the 40s. There are very important calculations that need to be taken into consideration when constructing the gallows and determining the length of the rope.
The big difference between our use of the death penalty and these other countries is that we only use it on hardened criminals after due process. They use it on 14 yr old girls who happen to date outside of her religious sect. We try to make it quick and painless. They try to make it as painful as possible. i.e. Lethal injection versus stoning.
BTW the former soldier who instigated the rape of the 14 yr old Iraqi girl and the murder of her and her family is going to trial with the knowledge that if convicted, he could face the death penalty. He might not get it, but it is on the table. Personally, this man is unfit to live in a civilized world.
I do have one question for liberals. Why is it okay to kill a viable fetus (late term when prenatal care would allow the baby to survive outside the mother) for nothing more than the mother’s convenience but it is morally wrong to execute someone who has proven that they are unfit to live in a civilized society?
They cannot answer that question, FAO. Because their position is completely illogical, and only makes sense to an addled mind.
48-”As far as the Blackwater case in Iraq is concerned, there is simply only one way to view this case: The Blackwater people are in an extremely dangerous and difficult environment.”
Right as a dizzy crack-junkie when robs the liquor store…
If private civilian people choose to go to another country as wellpaid mercenaries and kill innocent civilians- I see no legal justifcication or excuse. But I guess right wing justice only sees with one eye and generously looses sight of flaws happening on its own side…
49-”There are no more valid arguments left against the Death Penalty.”
This is the same kind of thinking that psychopathic murderers go through: Killing as the only logic consequence to solve a problem!
56- “death is caused by asphyxiation which has been recorded to take as long as 19 minutes, both of which are still shorter than the roughly 30 minutes that the current injection system takes.”
Sounds to me like the choice between “eternity” and “eternity plus”… nothing real preferable!
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“They use it on 14 yr old girls who happen to date outside of her religious sect.”
As I mentioned on the other thread, each country has its right to determine what is a crime and how this is supposed to be punished. In Thailand I may get hanged for smuggling drugs, in Singapore for littering the street and in Florida for lying naked on the beach…
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“We try to make it quick and painless.”
Really, FAO, this is about death. If you want to kill somebody quickly and painless, you should know how to DO it- not TRY to do it.
And as the number of botched executions show, the executioners obviously don’t know how to do it properly and 100% “safe”
59, why don’t you actually try to be informed before you post and prove your stupidity?
SFL, You libs have been trying to make being a Conservative a Capital Offense for decades. Don’t get all righteous because the DP is actually used for committing a real crime, not a hate crime.
58- Well our Congress never thought to make the legally culpable under current laws, so this isn’t some right wing thing here, but then, if you actually took the time to study a subject, you would know that!
61- What of my statements do you refer to? The Blackwater case?
yes.
61- So since when does “your Congress” decide about capital crimes committed abroad by private forces?
Iraq has a democratically elected government and its own right to decide what to do with offenders on its ground.
They would be tried under our laws, as they are performing a military service..It isn’t like I went to Iraq and killed someone..if that were the case, I would be tried under Iraqi law.
65- According to various sources Blackwater has and had no license by the Iraqi goverment to operate there…
Besides with the suspicion of having smuggled weapons to the terror organization PKK, Blackwater does not seem to deserve any other privilege than a room reservation in US holiday facility in Cuba…
66 WHOSE suspicion? Spit out your sources, piece of crap.
I suspect you for being an information hub for Islamic Jihad. How about you getting a “vacation” in Cuba. Maybe a little waterboarding before some sleep deprevation?
66- but of course you can’t back up your sources, nor could you explain this:
Iraq Revokes Blackwater’s License Following Shooting of Civilians
Wall Street Journal – Sep 17, 2007
“We have canceled the license of Blackwater and prevented them from working all over Iraqi territory. We will also refer those involved to Iraqi judicial …
As I said, do research before coming to the table with a silly arguement.
“Besides with the suspicion of having smuggled weapons to the terror organization PKK”
Wow, I’ve seen a lot iof anti-Blackwater propaganda in the MSM, but nothing like that. Where’d you dredge that up Matthias?
“As I mentioned on the other thread, each country has its right to determine what is a crime and how this is supposed to be punished. ”
As does the U.S. And whenever it is (properly) put to a vote, it is 2-1 in favor of exterminating the roaches.
“This is the same kind of thinking that psychopathic murderers go through: Killing as the only logic consequence to solve a problem!”
Ah, the moral equivalency problem again…equivocating a death sentence arrived at by operation of law to the actions of a criminal murderer. Sorry, no valid comparison is possible.
67- Yes… one of my “Commie-Jihad-Fascist”-Sources- the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7008058.stm
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68- According to some sources based upon the “Private Security Company Association of Iraq” Blackwater did not have a valid license. (src.: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20884905/ ) and the one they had expired in 2006 (src: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/17/AR2007091700238.html ).
And in any case I assume that this license would never cover murder of normal citizens or smuggle of weapons to terrorists…
72, BBC, that biased organization that is openly supporting AlQaeda? I wish you’d be smarter, piece of crap, but as usual you disappoint when it comes to giving you a chance.
72-Employees of Blackwater were charged with the smuggling. Blackwater wasn’t authorizing it nor did they condone it. Charges filed, case pending against the employees.
Blackwater’s license, that was valid as of September 2007, did in fact cover murder under the current laws.
73- To you, complete crap, everyone who does not share your distorted extremist opinion is biased and Al Qaeda supporting…
74- Assuming that there was any kind of license- I wonder what kind of formulation legalizes the intentional killing of innocent civilians…
70- “As does the U.S. And whenever it is (properly) put to a vote, it is 2-1 in favor of exterminating the roaches.”
Yes, but neither me nor the sane minority of your country has to be happy about that. In Nazi Germany also the majority approved (or at least did not stop) cruelties like the organized murder of people…
75, Listen for the first time in your pathetic life, German piece of crap. You are the one having a hard time accepting FACTS that contradict your dogma. To you it doesn’t matter what license or permit Blackwater has, you don’t condone them at all so anything they do is illegitimate and criminal.
Your problem is that your coffee nose is buried so deeply in your AlQaeda suporting sites that you didn’t notice upper management at the BBC got called on the carpet for being biased, hiring AlQaeda members as stringers for their stories, and flat out editorializing for AlQaeda by the British Government.
PCD- enough with the piece of crap!
Matthias, you really can’t tell the differece between Nazi Germany, where Germans killed Jews for no reason other than the fact that they were Jews, and the Death Penalty in the US, where a person is tried for a capital crime and convicted, and then sentenced to die?
Intentional killing is dealt with in the U.S., just as the arms deal was.
This incident is just like Haditha at this point. High on conviction, and low on facts in order to get a conviction.
79- I actually was “inspired” to the Nazi-comparison as Robert brought up the term “exterminating the roaches”…
It reminded me of a propaganda movie that was made by the Nazis to display Jews, Sinti, Roma, Handicapped people and other minorities as subhuman or non-human. The film contained alternating sequences of Jews in the ghetto (being quite dirty and run-down due to the horrible circumstances) and rats.
So Robert, Ted and all those idiots on this site, who tend to simplify their hate by verbally turning human beings into animals, pretending to preserve the safety and respect of one group of human beings, by propagating the extinction of others is the real loss of humanity- it is the real killer and terrorist mentality!
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“Intentional killing is dealt with in the U.S., just as the arms deal was.”
So by contract, Iraq outlaws each man, woman and child of its people- sounds like an enourmous improvement towards the former Saddam reign…
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“High on conviction, and low on facts in order to get a conviction.”
Which is seldom a barrier for cases in the US to get a death verdict, right?
80? Do you even proofread what you write? ou made not one bit of sense!
80
“So Robert, Ted and all those idiots on this site, who tend to simplify their hate by verbally turning human beings into animals…”
Show me where I have ever done this. Quote me and link to the thread with the post number, Matthias.
I will not allow such unsubstantiated slander go unchallenged. I will defend my good name. If you can not support your claim (as I am absolutely positive that you can not), then I will request one of two things:
1) An apology in this post admitting your error.
2) A ban of you from this site.
The choice is your.
Ted
There is a HUGE difference between capital punishment and wholesale genocide.
The difference is that the person being executed made a conscious decision to put their life at risk by committing a crime for which the possible penalty could be death. If they choose to not commit the crime, they do not put their life at risk. Look at it like parachuting, as long as you don’t jump out of the plane, you’re at minimal risk of dying from the fall. Once you make the decision to step out that door, you’ve made the decision to risk your life and have to accept the responsibility if you lose it.
Killing someone during an armed robbery isn’t the result of an accident. A series of decisions had to be made that lead up to that point. If the criminal had made any decision different than they did, the murder would probably not have occurred. I love the moron who screams that he didn’t intend to kill the person, the gun “Just went off”. That’s a complete lie. The gun couldn’t have possibly gone off if the moron hadn’t loaded it in the first place, so for him to say he didn’t intend to shoot anyone is a bald faced lie. He made the decision to commit the crime, he decided to use a gun, he decided to load the gun, he decided to point it at the person, and he decided to pull the trigger. He was willing to take someone else’s life to commit the crime. For him to refuse to accept responsibility for that action is pure BS.
As for the moron who is sitting in the jail awaiting trial for multiple murders, he didn’t just rape and brutalize the woman he went to prison over. He held her prisoner and raped and beat her for 3 full days. Exactly why was he EVER allowed back out of prison, let alone 7 years early.
#80 Matthias as FAO points out it is illogical and completely wrong to equivocate convicted evil murderers, sentenced to die by operation of law, with innocent victims of fascist regimes. It is an invalid comparison, a bullshit argument.
If you cannot discern the difference then you are not worth debating with.
82- Sorry, I just saw that it was our racist friend “Mike Kilo” who used to refer to “muslim animals” ( http://rightvoices.com/2007/07/18/reid-fails-againsenate-blocks-immediate-pullout/ ) and not you, Ted.
I apologize for this, Ted- my fault!
83- “There is a HUGE difference between capital punishment and wholesale genocide.”
Yes, regarding the amount of victims- No, regarding the cold systematic procedure
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“Killing someone during an armed robbery isn’t the result of an accident. A series of decisions had to be made that lead up to that point.”
Yes, but if some greedy mercenaries come to a country without some patriotic motivation and scythe away a dozen civilians- that’s probably an accident…
However, I don’t want to discuss the question of guilt of real criminals or people who kill people because the willingly (for personal benefit) choose to live in an extreme situation and don’t stand the pressure and therefor “accidently” commit a crime. The question is, how to deal with such people and how to punish them.
And punishment has several aspects beyond the payback to somebody who (as you think) deserves it at the same level of damage. I personally cannot stand the idea of humans killing eachother, neither as victims of a crime nor as the victim of an execution. Civilized people don’t do that to eachother.
My gut feeling denies that, my christian education denies that and my 21st century western cultural background denies that. It is like seeing “Saw” and turning away when Carey Elwes saws off his foot- I simply don’t bear the idea of somebody killing somebody else!
84- Actually my intention was not to compare any Death row applying regime to Nazi Germany (although they are a bit closer to it, than those who don’t do it), but pointing out that you, Robert, are applying Nazi-jargon in your justification for capital punishment.
The guy who shot his wife and her lover in the heat of the moment did not do it because he is/was “vermin”, but because he is a human being and humans do mistakes- however tragic these may be….
Ah yes, and then when the heat of the moment is over, they go to court, and present their version of the events.
85.
Apology accepted- thank you for being a big enough person to do such a thing.