The Illegal Immigration Debate We Need To Have
AJStrata and Michelle Malkin are two bloggers that I have a great deal of respect for. I don’t always agree with everything either one says, but I do listen to them, and in this case, both are making valid points:
WRAL reports on a new statistical breakdown of illegal alien drunk drivers in North Carolina. It’s a blood-pressure-raising look at the deadly revolving door, catch-and-release, the deportation abyss, and the danger of sanctuary policies embraced by those sworn to defend and protect the public
And the deportation abyss is because the laws did not get passed and there will be no new laws for years to come. This is as much Michelle’s fault as those she lambasts – she just won’t admit her efforts to stop the legislation kept the status quo in place. I want to remind people why I call Michelle and Tancredo and their ilk Amnesty Hypochondriacs….
As people know I will not debate on false pretenses and lies. As the comprehensive immigration reform got closer to reality some panicked and started to believe exaggerated and extreme theories. They became invested in myths just as the left has invested in myths that Iraq is a defeat.
I have no choice but to remind people that actions have results, and you better take responsibility for all the results of your actions, not just the ones you wanted but all those you did not think through. That is the essence of law and order, ignorance is not an excuse. You cannot say I had not realized that would happen and get a pass on vehicular manslaughter. You can only get the lowered punishment for negligence verses premeditation.
Michelle and the Amnesty Hypochondriacs traded endless drunk drivers for the opportunity to try one more time to deport the illegals, either directly or through coercion from lost wages, etc. There never was going to be the removal of 10-20 million people who have lived here for years, but they were not thinking straight, they had to stop the bill which would not have provided the punishments they wanted. They did not care the vast majority in this democracy did not agree with them, and therefore they should have accepted the fact they did not have the numbers and let as much reform get passed as was possible.
The fact is we had two choices and they gave us the worst of the two. Choice one was (a) comprehensive reform passes with its imperfections, (b) the long term illegals get a process to prove they should, and then pay, to stay, and (c) we get to deport the violent criminals without minimal resistance from the judicial branch (there would be some test challenges, always are.
The second choice is where we are: (a) no immigration reform, (b) long term illegals get to stay and (c) we still cannot deport violent criminals. The lie back then was we could fix our problems with current law. I have many posts on why that was a lie and is a lie. So when Michelle holds up these examples of what she and others wrought last year when they killed immigration reform I can only shake my head and ask “what were you thinking?” Remember Michelle, all those dead children might have been alive if the Immigration Reform package had passed and these criminals would have been deported instead of given a second chance. You all own this issue now, since you left us with this mess.
I really would like your reactions to this. I’m still absorbing AJ’s words so I will respond in the comments section.
April 19, 2008 - 09:35 AM on April 19th, 2008
Pam,
Thanks for posting the debate and I look forward to seeing the comments. I do not mean to imply evil intentions, but many people make tragic mistakes in judgement with the best of intentions at heart. That does not mean we cannot and should not learn from the mistake.
We had a chance to make a lot of progress – perfection is a dream. And we should never have traded that progress over irritation that those who broke a misdemeanor law would only get a misdemeanor punishment (fines and back taxes). The criminal background check was a huge step forward – one strike and your out. And it represented a fundamental change in our legal system where past criminal behavior applied to current legal standing.
It was an opportunity of a generation – and we squandered it over nothing.
Cheers, AJStrata
April 19, 2008 - 09:41 AM on April 19th, 2008
From the AJStrata blog:
“The illegal immigragtion issue is shifting out from the far right. The idea of creating a guest worker program, along with a process of steps and fines for those here for a long time making a living and keeping their noses cleam to gain legal status (recall, it is not a felony to be hear without a visa, etc.) will be coming back in vogue. Actually, they never were out of vogue. A vocal minority on the right bluffed their way into making people believe a lot of mythsabout immigration while they denied their key issue was letting people stay and work who have been here for a while working without legal entry. They hide behind a lot of common sense, common ideas (english only, no violent criminals, etc) to distract or ignore they fact they will not address the existing population with anything less than removing them from the countrty (by force orginally, now by coersion, starvation (lack of work) you name it).
When they are honest they lose support. But you cannot maintain illusions for long, reality comes crashing through. And the truth is the immigration horror stories were not the full story. The full story is this vocal minority waged a campaign against a very large element of our society (yes, they are inside our society and exist). And the fantasies of being able to remove these people without consequences are now crashing down. First we see many localities reversing their programs to coerce or push the immigrants out – mainly because these programs worked and when the immigrants left the local economies tanked (duh!):”
What is AJstrata smoking? This argument sounds like another apologist for illegals to me. Perhaps AJ needs to experience firsthand some of the negative consequences of these illegals AJ feels are so necessary. AJ writes like someone who has limited real experience.
What a buffoon, imo…
April 19, 2008 - 09:47 AM on April 19th, 2008
I will absolutely further disagree with AJStarta on the premise that Michelle Malkin and others who promoted the House Republican efforts to stop illegals was hypocrisy. Further, he misrepresents the arguments of the other side with the “two choices” argument; then reaches his conclusoon.
No, AJ, it isn’t that simple and you apparently deliberately misrepresent the other side. You misrepresent choice 1 by not calling it Amnesty, which it was, and misrepresent choice 2 by not recognizing it as “turning off the magnet” which would have been a better description.
The vast, vast majority of Americans want illegal immigration stopped and NO amnesty.
April 19, 2008 - 10:01 AM on April 19th, 2008
[...] Pam over at Right Voices is hosting a neutral debate corner – I suggest folks also comment there as well as here and at [...]
April 19, 2008 - 10:20 AM on April 19th, 2008
Thank-you AJ
April 19, 2008 - 10:48 AM on April 19th, 2008
Robert,
This is my take on the situation.
A. Did local economies tank when the illegals were pushed out? Some did, yes. That doesn’t mean that the local economies can not rebound, it just means that there will be an adjustment period and balance sheets will reflect a lesser ‘bottom line’. That lesser figure will be the figure for which the locality plans their budget. How much is being saved by pushing them out? That is where we need to take the discussion.
B. I may be reading too much into AJ’s words, but I think that the Republicans missed their opportunity to enact new laws and strengthen existing laws. We blew our chance in 2006. We are in a position to stop bad legislation, but are in no position to bring forth new legislation. We gave our elected leaders an ultimatum and they gave us the one fingered salute. AJ is correct in stating that we were never going to deport all the illegals, but we could have made it easier to deport them. States are enacting tougher laws, and that seems to be making a difference.
C. The jobs Americans won’t do…I brought up having kids work at the hotels or resturants to earn their way through college..SF Liberal laughed at me..My sil works for Michigan State and told me that paying for college is alot different then when I went. I went to college with kids that depended on GSL’s and if they didn’t come through, my friends didn’t come back. They depended on jobs on campus or just off campus. Today, kids finance their entire education plus spending money..Businesses can’t get them to work for $9.00/hr, hence you have illegals. I’m not suggesting we force the kids to take the work, but I am saying that my generation has created a generation of kids that can’t function without their parent’s and they have no idea what hard work is..we helped to create this mess!
If we could turn back time, how do you think that the situation could have been handled where we actually made a difference?
April 19, 2008 - 12:34 PM on April 19th, 2008
After Hillary or McCain or Obama become the next rule/President we will need no political debate but most non hispanic Americans will need a new home and if you think that is nuts go to any third world country and tell me how many kinds of people live with others? it really is all about race and ideals of how a nation works against or for people.
April 19, 2008 - 12:35 PM on April 19th, 2008
I also have to point out that Malkin’s position does not even seem to be able to win a majority in some Republican primaries. Take the year 2006 – Tom Tancredo’s PAC launched an all-out assault to defeat Chris Cannon in one of the most Republican districts in the country because Congressman Cannon supported the approach favored by President Bush.
Cannon won – by about a 56-44 margin. In the 8th district, Randy Graf had an even lower percentage of the Republican primary vote, but won because two other candidates split the vote.
Even this past presidential primary – who won? John McCain, whose name was on the immigration bill that Malkin so vehemently opposed. So is there support for her position on immigration? I submit that whatever support there is is insufficient to win Republican primary elections.
I’ll even go further – what support she has comes because she has mischaracterized President Bush’s proposal as an amnesty. There is punishment for breaking the law in his proposal – it just wasn’t as severe as she wanted (and in one interview, she is quoted as saying that she wants every single illegal immigrant deported). Her characterization of his proposal as amnesty reminds me of how Bill Clinton accused the Republicans of Medicare cuts when all they did was to reduce the rate that spending would increase.
The battle lines have hardened. With McCain as the nominee, Republicans who support comprehensive immigration reform can rightly claim that their view is shared by a significant portion of the GOP – one that can win contested primaries. Then there are those like Malkin who seem to be determined to fight this to the bitter end, no matter the consequences – it’s a mess.
April 19, 2008 - 02:25 PM on April 19th, 2008
“I submit that whatever support there is is insufficient to win Republican primary elections.”
I agree. There are some serious economic reasons for wanting to keep those workers here. The main reason is that we don’t have 12 million unemployed to take their place. If we were to deport all of the illegals, we would not have enough labor to take those jobs. Mechanization can replace some of those jobs but not nearly all of them. The result would be crops in fields to rot for lack of enough help and slowdowns in housing and commercial construction. Remember that the latest national unemployment rate was only 5.1%. When I was taking college economics, we were taught that 5% was “optimum”. We don’t have a problem with them taking away jobs from people.
Here is the problem I have with the far right. Their argument seems to be all about the people themselves. It seems to be about getting them out and keeping them from coming in. Deport them and build a wall. It isn’t at all about any economic reason, it seems to be about “purifying” the country or something.
Sure, a country needs to control its borders. So make for a very easy way for those people to get a work permit. I have a feeling that just won’t do. The point seems to be about getting them out and keeping them out. Any solution that does not involve that seems to be shot down.
We need a system where they can come “above board” and pay their taxes and be a full part of our economy. Then the argument that they take services but don’t pay their share of taxes goes away. But no. That would be “shamnesty” or something. It all seems so juvenile and bigoted to me. They seem to grasp at any problem they can find to justify kicking people out and ridicule any way of mitigating those problems that does not involve kicking them out. It sounds just like the rhetoric used against the Irish and Italian immigrants of generations past.
The fastest growing illegal population are people coming here from India. Where do we put that fence?
April 19, 2008 - 02:45 PM on April 19th, 2008
The thing that frustrates me is the fact that the hard-line anti-immigration supporters are obscuring the real issue: the trafficking of illegal narcotics. The only time the subject is even mentioned is when an “illegal”either on drugs or trafficking drugs commits a crime that results in the death of an innocent legal (and I stress the word legal) American. They talk a good game about “securing”the border from terror, but fail to realize the very real terror is not from Islamic factions but from the spill-over of the narco-wars going on along the border.
Because of the extreme rhetoric and the illusion of millions of voters switching votes, etc. the resources we need to control the border, to prevent the fighting from oozing into the US, are busy rounding up illegal migrants who are just trying to survive. Demands for more Border Patrol agents are being answered by a degradation of training and a curtailment of extensive background checks. The standards for choosing BP agents are being lowered. We already have what I believe is an extensive problem of bribery and corruption within the ranks of the Border Patrol. This is only going to make things worse. I see a time when so many critical BP agents are on the payroll of the drug cartels that the problems we have today with “migrants”will seem like a joyous walk in the park on a Sunday afternoon.
I’ve been writing about this for weeks. My sources tell me (and some of this you see in the news) that the fighting is spreading from Brownsville, Laredo, and Juarez into El Paso. There is an entire series of back roads from El Paso to Arizona through New Mexico that are now no longer considered safe to travel alone and unarmed. (You aren’t hearing this in the news). The drug cartels, squeezed out of other areas by those blasted “walls”are moving into the territory where I live. We see a lot ‘action’ out of Cochise County via the anti-immigration organizations. This action is allegedly all about the movement of migrants across the border.
The problem is the fact that these alleged anti-immigration organizations and minutemen, etc. are little more than an illusion in Cochise County. They talk a good game, but have very little presence and even less interaction with “normal”people who live there. Consequently, because of the “presence”of these organizations and their dominions of supporters, resources are once again diverted from the real problem.
The problem is narco-trafficking.
The problem is the movement of Central American criminal gangs into the US. By lambasting and turning the illegal Mexican migrant into the demon monsters they now are, and by diverting ICE and the BP into tracking these people who have been pushed farther and farther into the wastelands of the vast deserts along the border, once again the wrong people are allowed to slip through, unmolested.
The problem is the fact that the anti-immigration hard-liners know little or nothing about the culture and geography of our border with Mexico. Some idiot who comments over at the Pink Flamingo lambasted me the other day for yet another of my exposes on Sheriff Joe Arpaio. This person evidently did not realize that Arpaio is in Maricopa County and that Maricopa County is not along the border with Mexico. They don’t understand the parks and ranches are now being “trashed”because traditional migratory routes, that have been traveled since humans have lived in the southwest, are being blocked.
The problem is the fact that the narco-traffickers are using loop-holes in our gun laws to purchase (legally) massive numbers of guns here in the US. In Mexico a person may legally own nothing more than a .38 and it must be purchased from the Police. The guns are loaded into stolen late model pick-up tricks and SUV’s and easily moved back across the border. They then feed the war.
Anti-immigration hard-liners like Malkin are just positive these weapons are going to Islamic terrorists. She and her associates have any number of conspiracy theories to prove their point, but none of them hold up under scrutiny and reality. The movement of these weapons is going to the drug cartels.
You can talk about all the reform you wish. You can discuss the political ramifications of hard-line immigration reform. We can discuss the very real ramifications this will have on the GOP with the Hispanic vote. None of it matters in the end. The very real problem is while we are playing chicken little and allowing the sky to fall on people like Malkin, Tancredo, Dobbs, Tanton and the like, we are allowing a well armed and well-funded criminal element to creep across the border and begin to overwhelm local populations and law enforcement.
Yes, I am angry. My beloved southwest is endangered by the movements of drug cartels across the border. Before long, it will no longer be safe to go into Cochise County. In fact, the back roads along the border, heading into the county from the east are no longer safe to travel. Ten years ago I could roam them, alone, unafraid. Today they are moving closer to ground zero in drug war no one is noticing.
Doesn’t it make you wonder why no one is mentioning the drug war on the border?
SJR
The Pink Flamingo
April 19, 2008 - 04:40 PM on April 19th, 2008
I am not an open borders type and I live in an area nationally known for a severe illegal immigrant problem. Our local schools and services are suffering under the deluge.
But what I showed in the two choices was reality, not fantasy. We either made some major progress or we were left with the same mess. Malkin and others crowed about how they had one by keeping the current mess.
Now they need to see what that really entailed. It entailed the continuation of the deadly and sad mess Malkin posted about. Their ‘victory’ was the essence of a pyrrhic victory – were they won a small battle and lost the larger war.
I am simply noting the results.
April 19, 2008 - 07:03 PM on April 19th, 2008
I’m from Phoenix. There is nothing in any law that says we can’t deport illegal alien criminals, so the comment saying that we needed the shamnesty bill that was McCain/Kennedy is an outright LIE. IF any of the US attornies would do the damn job that they are appointed to do, as in enforce the LAW, we wouldn’t have the illegal alien issues that we have. It is a FELONY to reenter this country once deported. Since when do US attornies have the legal authority to decide that they aren’t going to prosecute a FELON until they’ve been caught SIX TIMES!!!!!?????? One US attorney openly admitted that his office isn’t going to prosecute ANYONE until they’ve been caught AND DEPORTED on at least 5 previous occasions. Does that mean if I go into bank robbing, or committing fraud (which is what illegal aliens working in this country are doing), I’ll be given a slap on the wrist, a ride home, and the ability to keep the money until I’ve been CAUGHT 6 times? I doubt it.
The comment that the vast majority of US voters favor giving amnesty to millions of illegals is also a lie when considering the number of referendums denying benefits to illegal aliens in Arizona have passed by 3 to 1 margins. The only people in this country who support allowing the illegals to stay are either people profiting from their criminal activity or those too uninformed to know what damage these invaders are doing to this country. I’ll take advice from someone who isn’t collecting welfare or remittance checks or living in an area with gated communities and hospitals without a 15 hour wait in the ER (IF IT’S STILL OPEN, THE ONE NEAR MY HOUSE ISN’T) because of the Illegal aliens using it as a free clinic on the taxpayer dime.
A federal judge has ordered Arizona to spend tens (possibly hundreds) of millions of dollars for special programs for children who don’t speak English. Guess what, the vast majority of them aren’t needing help in Swahili. They’re the kids of Mexican and other central Americans who have crossed the border, predominantly illegally, and haven’t bothered to learn to speak English themselves.
I was in a car accident with someone who ran a red light, didn’t speak English, may or may not have had a license, and may or may not have had insurance. The police failed to write his driver’s license OR insurance information on the traffic accident contact form. My information was on it, the driver of the third car in the accident was on it, but the driver’s license and insurance information for the non English speaking moron who caused the accident was conveniently left blank. The word on the street in Phoenix is that if you have a car accident with someone who you believe could be an illegal alien and have to call a police agency, call the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office. They’ll not only investigate the accident they’ll determine if the other party is in the country illegally or not.
You don’t have to tell me about what effect the illegal alien issue has on the economy, I’m fully aware of it. I’ve had to drive through construction sites where the only language being spoken was Spanish. I’ve had to deal with repeatedly getting flat tires from the boxes of nails that they leave strewn across the road without regard to anyone having to drive by. Yes, I’ve seen 5 lb boxes of nails kicked in such a manner as to leave nails strewn a full car’s width into the street. I’ve seen how these wonderful below market workers depress wages by millions of dollars, steal millions more from the local economy by shipping it south of the border, and commit crime repeatedly. I’ve seen how they commit social security and tax fraud. I’ve seen how they use this country as their private little crime pit and then skip across the border to Mexico to avoid prosecution. Yes, I’ve seen how wonderful these people are.
I won’t deny that illegal drug runners are an ever increasing problem. Were we to stop the flow of EVERYONE across the border illegally, no matter how draconian the measures necessary, the drug smuggling cartels would be stopped as well.
There’s a way to solve the problem that doesn’t require a lot of tax payer dollars to implement and amnesty for millions of lawbreakers isn’t it. Secure the border. Impose draconian measures on ANY employer caught NOT verifying employees. Why is it that the Social Security Administration, and the IRS won’t share information with DHS about all the people who are working under false or stolen SSNs? Once employers realize that they are not going to get away with hiring illegal aliens at below market wages, they will be forced to fire all of the illegal aliens and replace them with legal workers at fair market value. OOOOH but they’re doing jobs American’s won’t do. BS. They’re doing jobs Americans won’t do FOR THOSE WAGES. Why is there always a long line at IN and OUT burger while McDonald’s and Burger King have short one? Could it be the fact that the food tastes better because it’s prepared fresh and to order at IN and OUT? Could it be that ALL of the employees speak ENGLISH FLUENTLY so your order isn’t screwed up horribly? Could it be that the reason why all of the employees speak ENGLISH is because it is a requirement of working there AND IN and OUT pays $9.00+ an hour to start. So don’t tell me that a fast food restaurant can’t find Americans to work in it, they just have to pay a fair market wage to get them. As long as they’re able to hire Illegal Aliens to fill the positions that were filled by teenagers 20 years ago for below market wages, they’re going to continue doing it. And you’re order will be wrong over 50% of the time because the person on the other end of the drive through speaks English so poorly that they can’t take an order properly.
Here’s the solution for how to solve the problem. AFTER securing the border and forcing the illegals to leave by not allowing them to work here. (it’s called self deportation and it’s working in Arizona) Companies will have to raise wages to attract workers. If a grower has to pay someone $20 an hour and provide benefits to retain someone to pick lettuce, so be it. Lettuce may go up to $1.50 a head. If that’s what the lettuce costs to produce, so be it. It’s called the free market and the liberals should love it because it does two things they seem to love, cut into corporate profits and raise wages among the poor. Once all of the positions are filled that can be, AT FAIR MARKET VALUE WAGES, allow employers to get as many foreign workers as they need, BUT THEY MUST PAY THEM A FAIR MARKET WAGE. By requiring that the employers pay the foreign workers a FAIR MARKET wage, there will be a lot less incentive to go out and hire aliens in lieu of American citizens. Tie the continuance of any temporary work permit with obeyance of every other law, and make permits revokable AND non reassignable. i.e. any foreign worker caught committing a crime would be deported, his permit revoked, and the employer not permitted to replace him. In that manner, employers will be held responsible for the acts of their foreign guest workers. Don’t keep your employees in line, lose the employee and NOT be permitted to replace him with another alien. It will also encourage employers to background check their foreign employees BEFORE bringing them into the country.
On the topic of the illegal aliens brought here as children or anchor babies born here, I really do feel sorry for them. There is a path that should be opened to them to EARN the right of citizenship and be allowed to stay here. Any illegal alien brought here as a child, or anchor baby born here of illegal alien parents, should be allowed to earn the right to become a US citizen by enlisting and serving this country for 6 years, provided they meet the enlistment requirements for the service they wish to enter. Provided they serve honorably for 6 years, they, their parents and their minor siblings should be allowed to stay in this country until such time as the siblings reach 18 and are given the option of enlisting or returning to their country of citizenship as well. This plan provides all of the children who are currently in this country illegally with the opportunity to receive an education, job training, college benefits, and the ability to earn the right to become a US citizen. They should NOT receive in state college tuition until and unless they become US citizens. US soldiers serving outside the state which is listed as their home of record do not receive in state tuition, why should illegal aliens living outside their COUNTRY of origin?
April 19, 2008 - 10:25 PM on April 19th, 2008
“AJ is correct in stating that we were never going to deport all the illegals”
I’ve been saying this to you guys for years. (!)
————-
“…brought up having kids work at the hotels or resturants to earn their way through college..SF Liberal laughed at me”
What?!? I would never laugh at you, or anyone else, for having a strong work ethic.
April 20, 2008 - 01:51 AM on April 20th, 2008
First, one thing needs to be made clear – S J Reidhead is a blatant liar. I’m the “idiot” she refers to. I’ve told her SEVERAL TIMES over the past year or so that I live along the Arizona border, and I certainly know who Sheriff Joe is.
“The problem is the fact that the anti-immigration hard-liners know little or nothing about the culture and geography of our border with Mexico. Some idiot who comments over at the Pink Flamingo lambasted me the other day for yet another of my exposes on Sheriff Joe Arpaio. This person evidently did not realize that Arpaio is in Maricopa County and that Maricopa County is not along the border with Mexico. They don’t understand the parks and ranches are now being “trashed”because traditional migratory routes, that have been traveled since humans have lived in the southwest, are being blocked.”
A) She lied about me (and has lied about others) – for this and other reasons, her credibility should be considered zero.
B) She lives in New Mexico, but does NOT live along the border. I DO. I live with the mess EVERY DAY. She sits in a condo far away. Based on some of her other misinformed postings about things Southwest, it’s clear to me that I and others have a far better understanding of the culture than she has.
C) The traditional migratory routes she speaks of, were used by a couple of INDIAN TRIBES, not the Mexicans, not the Guatamalans, not the Brazilians, not the Chinese. Nevertheless, from her post above it seems clear that she’s fine with THOSE being trashed instead!
D) As far as the geography – I know my area better than ANY area she knows. She claims to know Cochise County. HA! Some of it is low land, but with 9,000 ft mountains, it is NOT a vast wasteland – neither is Santa Cruz County – it is beautiful rolling grasslands and mountains. BTW – what’s with calling it “a vast wasteland” and later calling it “my beloved Southwest”? She needs to get her story straight.
E) How do I know that she doesn’t know much about the situation in SE Arizona? Because she only views it from an auto while driving by. And that’s done only a couple of times a year. She doesn’t get out and actually HIKE the areas. How do I know this? Because she has posted that she doesn’t like to leave her condo, due to her weight. She’s no hiker.
F) I asked her to come to the AZ border, I have her trash bags waiting. She could be part of the solution, instead of part of the problem. Her response was that she didn’t pick up trash – she hires others to do that. I suspect she enjoys the cheap labor illegals bring – and that may be her true motivation for championing illegal immigration.
G) She obviously has not been to my area along the So Arizona border that has been trashed, so she doesn’t know what she’s talking about… not that she feels a lack of actual knowledge should deter her from her regular rants on her blog against any and all who disagree with her. Of course there’s always the possibility that she’s done a drive by – and thus erroneously thinks she “knows” the area.
H) She doesn’t recognize that the same cartels are moving both drugs and people. That shows a basic lack of understanding of the situation.
I) It is ALREADY not safe to enter certain areas in Cochise County – I have been stopped more than once and warned about the danger. The govt has virtually ceded certain areas to the cartels, and warning signs are posted. There have been dangerous areas here for quite a while.
J) BTW, S J Reidhead has in the past posted AGAINST any real security for the border, so she’s talking out of both sides of her mouth when she now claims she’s for it. She’s also devoted posts to bad-mouthing BP agents. These men and women literally risk their lives, often heading out ALONE where the smuggling cartels operate.
I’ve lived along the border for a long time – the people crossing now are FAR different from those of 20 or 30 years ago. People used to leave out food and blankets for those who came and LEFT like clockwork. Now the locals bolt their doors – because those coming now think nothing of threatening them. Those crossing now, STAY – they don’t go back; it’s now a one-way migration.
And no, the majority are not really poor. Poor people can’t afford airline tickets. Poor people can’t afford expensive jewelery. Poor people can’t afford cell phones. Poor people can’t afford high dollar Team Logo sports jackets, or expensive sneakers. They sure can’t afford to leave those things behind in the layup areas along the border.
April 20, 2008 - 02:25 AM on April 20th, 2008
We don’t have to deport them. Simply deprive them of the means to support themselves and their families and they’ll return to their country of origin voluntarily. It’s easy. it’s cheap and (based on the last six months of experience in Arizona) it works. Force employers to hire legal residents or put them out of business and they’ll obey the laws that have been on the books since 1986. How much easier can that be? Instead of going after 10,000,000+ illegal aliens, go after the 1 – 2 million employers who are hiring them illegally. Make it illegal to congregate on corners for the purpose of soliciting work. Make it illegal to hire someone off a street corner. A couple of the streets that I occasionally have to drive on are so clogged with day laborers seeking work that it’s all you can do to avoid hitting one of them without crossing the dividing line and going into oncoming traffic. Amazingly there isn’t a single white or black American citizen in the crowd. They’re a public hazard. It took Sheriff Joe running sweeps through the neighborhood to get the mob of them out of the parking lot of a local furniture store. They were so thick that they were scaring away the customers. Then when the furniture store complained about the tresspassers and loitering, the “day laborers” started picketing in the driveway to the store costing the store millions of dollars in business. A couple of the illegal alien advocates are even threatening violence if Sheriff Joe doesn’t stop enforcing the laws and arresting illegal aliens. Maybe a legal resident advocate should look the POS’s in the eye and tell them that there could be a back lash by the LEGAL community against them should such a thing happen.
April 20, 2008 - 05:29 AM on April 20th, 2008
13- You did when we got into the fact that I brought up college towms and hotels etc..you said those kids wouldn’t work in them etc., ..you never said anything about a strong work ethic though as I kind of figured you were raised with one. I brought up the work ethic because if you take a look around at the youngins..money goes and applies for their job, deals with their boss etc..
My point is, we keep expanding the category “jobs Americans won’t do”
April 20, 2008 - 05:50 AM on April 20th, 2008
crosspatch- Just a few observations on your post
A. Are you assuming that all 10-12 million illegals are employed?
B. Crops are one thing, but what about the citizens that lose jobs in manufacturing or construction?
C. Are the illegals from India overstaying their visas?
April 20, 2008 - 07:12 AM on April 20th, 2008
For those who naively think current laws can be used to deport illegal aliens I turn your attention to one Michelle Malkin who admits the opposite is true (my post on it):
it is obvious that we cannot use current laws to deport illegals, even ones who commit crimes. This used to be openly admitted by the Amnesty Hypochondriacs when they were pushing for mass deportations – this was the barrier to their dreams. They needed stronger laws to be able to deport the immigrants.
But when the Comprehensive Bill was going to pass all of a sudden the laws they said needed fixing for years were just fine and we could do what we needed under current law. Sort of a strange shift in views since nothing new was passed in the interim.
April 20, 2008 - 08:45 AM on April 20th, 2008
That is a great point AJ. I’ll admit, I thought it was the ’sanctuary’ policies that were standing in our way. The “Sanctuary Cities” are a part of the arguement, but I’ll put that aside for now.
FAO brought up the fact that his state of AZ has been hit hard by the negative impact of illegal immigration; schools, hospitals, neighborhoods, etc..He is saying that the laws that his state, and not the federal government, enacted, has brought relief to the citizens. Employers are being fined. The jobs are drying up. The downside to that is that the illegals are leaving AZ for other parts of the country that don’t have or don’t enforce their state laws.
Based on your knowledge of the situation, couldn’t we solve many of the problems at a state level? I think we can.
BTW, I appreciate that a high profile blogger such as yourself would take a public stand against Michelle. I did not read your words to be inflammatory, but a call to action, a call to actually discuss the topic. We need that and people should be able to discuss it without being called a troll or a RINO or any other name that gets tossed out there. So thank-you AJ for getting this discussion started.
April 20, 2008 - 09:04 AM on April 20th, 2008
#15 “We don’t have to deport them. Simply deprive them of the means to support themselves and their families and they’ll return to their country of origin voluntarily. It’s easy. it’s cheap and (based on the last six months of experience in Arizona) it works.”..
Exactly right! We here have been saying this for a year; why does the debate still include the notion that all the illegals have to be tracked down and arrested, then conclude that can’t be done so he have to keep them? We don’t.
Last year there were two plans, the House Republican plan and the Senate (Kennedy) plan. The Senate plan was aka “Shamnesty”, the House plan was a very tough plan. The Democrites and illegal supporters on both sides shot down the House plan. The Good Republicans shot down the Shamnesty plan.
As I recall Michelle Malkin was on the side of the House plan, which was far closer to what most Americans want. It was good the Shamnesty plan went down. We tried Amnesty in 1986, has that lesson of history been forgotten?
No, it’s tiem to tackle the illegal immigration plan a new way, one which I have outlined here more than once:
1. TURN OFF the magnet (many will leave on their own).
2. Close and Control the border (whatever it takes).
3. Increase the penalties for hiring (Draconian).
4. End the anchor baby and chain immigration policy.
5. End motor voter and enforce election laws to cut down fraud.
There you go. That’s the formula for success. It really is that simple.
April 20, 2008 - 09:06 AM on April 20th, 2008
Pam,
Thanks for being a place to debate – gets too heated at my site. The problem is states cannot produce a coherent national policy. The comprehensive bill was a huge step forward now twice junked in Congress by some in the GOP.
The truth is there will be no legislation for years – another result the far right did not appreciate when it pulled out all the stops to stop the legislation.
The dems are slaves to their far left base who want true open borders and immediate citizenship for illegals. Until the centrists can take sufficient control of the government there will be no common sense solution. Give it a couple of Congressional election cycles to dilute the hyper-partisans (as opposed to the normal partisan) before action is taken. Until then people like Michelle will continue to show case their handy work and blame it on others.
Classy, eh?
April 20, 2008 - 09:45 AM on April 20th, 2008
Pam:
In response to your questions to crosspatch:
1. I think that to characterize all of the 10-12 million illegal immigrants as criminals and welfare sponges is way off base. I think that the majority of them, like the majority of Americans, are decent people.
2. I would flip that question around – have we been over-valuing construction and manufacturing jobs? If someone is willing to do construction for $12 an hour, then why should someone have to pay $19 an hour?
3. I would say, yes, those from places outside Mexico are generally overstaying visas.
I would like to re-iterate a question I had earlier:
1. Is the position espoused by Michelle Malkin and Tom Tancredo TRULY that of a majority of Americans? If so, then why has it not been reflected in recent election results, both in primaries (including the 2008 Republican nomination contest) and general elections?
Based on the election results in Republican primaries, I would submit that Malkin is the loudest voice in an extremely passionate minority, while a silent majority of the Republican coalition, to include a fair number of conservatives, seem to back the approach favored by President Bush and Senator McCain.
Furthermore, the question now needs to be asked: If a majority of Republicans are NOT bothered by the approach of Senator McCain and President Bush, and that this is even true in themost Republican districts in the country (like Utah’s third congressional district), then shouldn’t their views be treated with respect?
April 20, 2008 - 10:30 AM on April 20th, 2008
Harold,
I asked about the employment status because the way crosspatch stated it. All the illegals are not employed, which would throw his/her argement off a bit. That was my reasoning for asking.
I would agree that the majority probably are decent people, but they are illegal.
Have we been over-valuing construction and manufacturing jobs? Yes, most definitely we have. But don’t stop there. Charlie Gibson talked about tech support one night during I believe a 2004 debate? His point was, why should a company hire an American at $50.00/hr when we can get the same if not a better support team from somewhere else for quite a bit less..Less than a month ago, the president of AT&T spoke about the fact that they want to hire Americans but they are not as qualified as what can be found over-seas.
And what is the solution to this problem according to the blog author?
I used to work in the manufacturing sector. The jobs that are out there are not as labor intensive as they were 30 years ago. Go into any automotive assembly plant and everything is automated. Millions get spent on equipment so that the employee doesn’t have to do much yet with each quartly report, labor costs go up! Insane!
It is my belief that the majority want the situation fixed. By fixed, I mean stop the out of control flow of illegals into this country. We can not afford to keep absorbing a welfare class of immigrants, heck, we can’t afford our own home grown welfare class
I will say though that Michelle does not represent the majority. I think that the majority wants a fair and equitable solution to a problem that does need to be taken care of.
April 20, 2008 - 12:43 PM on April 20th, 2008
The thing is, the same also applies to the construction and manufacturing jobs as well. If a Mexican can do the same job for $15 an hour that an AFL-CIO worker charges $25 an hour to do… then the law of supply and demand is going to kick in. To an extent, I think that part of illegal immigration has been the free market trying to correct the over-valuing of manufacturing and construction jobs in America.
To an extent, the guest-worker program would have addressed that, but it was fought tooth and nail by Malkin and the others.
I agree, most people want the flow stopped. The problem is, it seems that the battle lines have hardened. A fair bit of it is due to the heated rhetoric that has gone both ways for a while. Malkin has been quick to call people who back the approach favored by President Bush and Senator McCain “open-borders sellouts” – and other conservative forums have even considered terms like “Quisling” and “traitor” to be acceptable labels. Eventually, there was going to be a fair bit of push-back, and now stuff flies the other way.
Neither side seems willing to back down in this internecine debate. Quite frankly, after some of the stuff aimed at me, seeking common ground is very difficult, to put it mildly. Unfortunately, right now, I fear that the extremes are dominating the debate, and until the silent majority is willing to speak up, we’re doomed to the heated debate for a while.
April 20, 2008 - 12:56 PM on April 20th, 2008
If I may add something else – I think comments like those from Fred Dawes earlier in the thread, and those that Congressman Tancredo made with regards to Pope Benedict XVI or calling Miami a “Third World city” also lead people to believe that there is more to objections to illegal immigration than just the law.
Yet Malkin makes no effort to try to police her own side of the debate – instead she and others complain when people like Linda Chavez point those comments out, and ask very legitimate questions about what they seem to indicate about the mindset of Tancredo and others.
April 20, 2008 - 01:01 PM on April 20th, 2008
Harold, I can understand and appreciate what you have been going through. That is why I want to open up the dialogue so that we can have a reasoned conversation and maybe, just maybe, we can come up with some solutions that can be implemented.
My problem with the guest worker program is that there seems to be too much emphasis on low paying jobs, again, feeding my real fear that we are expanding the welfare class.
I do believe that the States are making a difference. Fining employers in violation of the law is necessary. Many of the businesses getting into trouble are not newly opened..they used to depend on local people to work for them, saw a way to make some quick money, rid themselves of the locals, hired illegals and what a difference it made to their balance sheets! That is wrong
April 20, 2008 - 01:03 PM on April 20th, 2008
We usually ignore everything fred says..
April 20, 2008 - 01:34 PM on April 20th, 2008
Pam:
I think we could do far more for public safety by focusing resources to ensure that every person arrested for a violent crime has their immigration status determined.
And herein lies the problem – the criminals, drug dealers, and terrorists are the most likely to cause harm, not the person putting in the 40-hour week for a living and sending it on down the line. Logically, they need to be the first that we screen and deport.
If that means going without the fines from businesses, so be it. You can always hit them down the road. After the criminal has killed someone is way too late.
Of course, in more cynical and less charitable moods (yes, I will admit I do have those moments), I sometimes have speculated as to whether or not people like Malkin have needed a level of killing so they can keep emotions high on this issue – because invariably, when there is a crime allegedly perpetrated by an illegal immigrant, they are in high dudgeon, yet nobody seems willing to point out that by demanding we spend resources to raid meatpacking plants and construction sites, they pushed the Administration into diverting the very agents who could have screened criminals earlier.
I think the first priorities have to be violent criminals, drug dealers, and terrorists. Once those segments under control, then talk to me about others, but until then, I don’t think you can justify going after people who are working. They’re the least of our problem.
April 20, 2008 - 01:53 PM on April 20th, 2008
“…If so, then why has it not been reflected in recent election results, both in primaries (including the 2008 Republican nomination contest) and general elections?”
Maybe because the Republican leadership has been unwilling to bring immigration control to the forefront as an issue. It is a winner, but they won’t do it, instead enraging millions of Americans by going along with the wishy-washy Bush viewpoint.
If Republicans had the guts to make this issue in the top two (along with the war on terror) they would sweep the Democrites. They don’t because they foolishly want cheap labor, are afraid of being called racist by people who won’t support them anyway, and somehow think the amnesty beneficiaries will vote for them, which they won’t.
April 20, 2008 - 02:02 PM on April 20th, 2008
“To an extent, I think that part of illegal immigration has been the free market trying to correct the over-valuing of manufacturing and construction jobs in America.”
No, it skews the free market and lowers the standard of living for American workers. It corrupts the action of the free market. In Kalifornia, for example, you cannot even buy a low-end home plus pay taxes, and feed your family on most jobs that you’d call over-valued. Then the illegals come in and cut those wages in half. Of course they are living twenty to a subsidized rental house, with the women collecting freebies paid for by the taxes of those whose wages they are undercutting. Racist? No, REALITY.
Whenever I hear such arguments as you present, I shake my head and wonder what real experience, what real firsthand knowledge you have of what is actually going on out there. You can sit their and debate all of these intellectual-sounding opinions and platitudes, but they don’t match up very well with reality from what I’ve seen.
April 20, 2008 - 02:05 PM on April 20th, 2008
“…And herein lies the problem – the criminals, drug dealers, and terrorists are the most likely to cause harm, not the person putting in the 40-hour week for a living and sending it on down the line.”
And on post #30 I have presented an example scenario where those putting in their 40-hr week in fact are harming our society and other working Anmericans indeed.
We don’t even need to go into the subject of the criminals, grifters, cheats, and vermin to make the case the illegals are a net negative for our Society.
April 20, 2008 - 02:06 PM on April 20th, 2008
Robert:
I have seen Republicans runs on immigration in Virginia in the 2005, 2006, and 2007 elections.
The Democrats kept the governor’s mansion, defeated a sitting Republican senator, and took the state senate in each of those three years.
If that’s a winning issue, with all due respect, I have to wonder what planet you come from. If you have proof otherwise, then post it.
April 20, 2008 - 02:21 PM on April 20th, 2008
In solid Blue-State Kalifornia, with both Senators Liberal Democrites, and a State Legislature that has been in the death-grip control of the Left for 40 years, EVERY time an initiative has come on the ballot for a vote by the people to curtail immigration, or to reduce or eliminate freebies to turn off the magnet, or English-only in schools it has passed by a solid majority. Then the illegal supporters go out and shop their inevitable lawsuits to a sympathetic judge and get it thrown out wholesale or gutted.
Sorry, even in Liberal Kalifornia the solid majority wants the magnet turned off, the bad apples thrown out, the border controlled, and an end to the utter insanity. They don’t want the Senate shamnesty bill you supporters think is so “reasonable”, so moderate, so wonderful.
If you think the tepid enforcement measures in that bill are so reasonable and will work, perhaps you could explain why the 1986 Simpson-Mazzoli bill was such an utter failure and directly contributed to the much bigger problem we have today that it was supposed to solve? Do you honestly think for one minute the same Gov’t that didn’t enforce the rules then, which has dragged its feet and let the problem mushroom out of control, would now magically be diligent in its enforcement of even the lukewarm rules in the Shamnesty bill? If so that’s some good stuff you’re smoking…have another doobie, man!
April 20, 2008 - 02:23 PM on April 20th, 2008
I come from the planet of Kalifornia, which in some ways has almost become another planet. See post 33.
April 20, 2008 - 02:25 PM on April 20th, 2008
And if what you say is true, HCH, I would argue that perhaps the illegal experience in Virginia is not the same as in the Western States.
In Kalifornia, we are drowning in them.
April 20, 2008 - 04:52 PM on April 20th, 2008
Robert:
Do you really think that implying that I’m on pot makes your point that much stronger?
Quite frankly, it doesn’t impress me at all.
April 20, 2008 - 06:57 PM on April 20th, 2008
I am not interested in impressing you whatsoever. It is simply one possible explanation for an obvious hole in your argument.
April 20, 2008 - 07:09 PM on April 20th, 2008
I am assuming the Senate shamnesty bill was choice one:
“The fact is we had two choices and they gave us the worst of the two. Choice one was (a) comprehensive reform passes with its imperfections, (b) the long term illegals get a process to prove they should, and then pay, to stay, and (c) we get to deport the violent criminals without minimal resistance from the judicial branch (there would be some test challenges, always are.”
With it’s imperfections? Puhhhlease… Those imperfections were fatal. It would be a replay of Simpson-Mazzoli all over again, where the illegals get to stay and many get citizenship, the enforcement never gets done, and the message goes out to Mexico the water’s great come on in…Bienvenidos Amigos!
ChapaTraitor Ted Kennedy lied through his teeth then when he told Congress and America then that the bill would not result in an increase of illegal immigration. The bill passed, and created a problem for us now that is many times in magnitude what we were facing in 1986. How many here remember that? I lived through that time and followed it closely. It was a scam, a lie, and a cruel fraud on America.
Michelle Malkin and others whom you disparage are right. They aren’t buying another lie. Fool me once…
Is it bad that nothing is happening? Yes, of course. Does that mean we should go down essentially the same failed road we already tried 21 years ago? No! A bad solution is worse than no solution. If the problem continues to fester until even the most ignorant Americans realize we have a crisis, then perhaps we can get the real change needed, not a replay of past failed policy.
April 20, 2008 - 07:54 PM on April 20th, 2008
Robert: I think an obsession over Mexico/Mexicans is arguably an explanation for your irrational and uncivil tone here. Quite frankly, I would wonder if you’d have a guts to repeat the “traitor” comment to my face – or to that of any other person who backs comprehensive immigration reform.
Pam: See Post 38 for an example of what some on Malkin’s side view as acceptable discourse. Robert’s comment seems to imply that anyone who favors the President’s approach to this issue is committing treason. Do you consider such comments acceptable discourse?
April 20, 2008 - 09:36 PM on April 20th, 2008
Robert- What is the ideal bill you are looking to get passed? At this point in the debate, the sanctuary policies need to be brought up as well as the lack of true border enforcement..IMO, those 2 items are a direct cause for the failure of Simpson-Mazzoli.
April 20, 2008 - 11:29 PM on April 20th, 2008
Pam: Sanctuary is a double-edged sword.
On the one hand, for those who want strict enforcement of immigration law, it does seem like an affront.
On the other hand, by not having the cops ask crime victims and/or witnesses about their immigration status, they were more willing to come forward and put violent criminals away.
—
As for the border enforcement, we have 2,000 miles of border with Mexico – but that is not all the “border” we have. Canada’s border with the US is even larger, and Canada has tended to give Islamic radicals (who are disproportionately prone to terrorism) asylum (meaning they get Canadian passports and new identities, plus welfare benefits).
And what exactly does “true border enforcement” entail? What is the standard that will be set for successful enforcement of the border? What are we willing to pay in order to accomplish that? What consequences will we have to live with? Strategypage.com reports that our security efforts on the Mexican border managed to merely increase the price to get across, making it worth the efforts of the drug cartels (Link: http://strategypage.com/qnd/mexico/articles/20080402.aspx) to get into that business.
Oh, and don’t forget the coasts. If they’re determined to come by sea, they will… and the Coast Guard will need a big-time increase for more patrol vessels, planes, and the personnel to man them.
April 20, 2008 - 11:39 PM on April 20th, 2008
Here are a few things that if implemented would severely curtail the illegal aliens coming across the border. Secure it by any means necessary. Sheriff Joe has shown that throwing illegals in jail for 4 to 6 months BEFORE deporting them encourages them NOT to come back. Especially if they’re told that the next time they’re caught they’ll have to serve 6 to 12 months of a suspended sentence BEFORE starting any additional jail time and deportation.
As for not being able to deport criminal illegal aliens, you need to check the news. Arizona’s program of dealing with them has been recommended as a model for other states to follow. As soon as they are eligible for parole, they are turned over to ICE for deportation. They don’t appeal the deportation because the other option is to go straight back to their prison cell. The state saves tens of thousands of dollars by releasing them for deportation early, the illegal gets out of prison early but understands that if he returns to the US and is caught, he’s off to prison for a few more years, whether he commits any crime other than illegally entering the US or NOT.
To keep criminal illegals off the streets, the voters of Arizona passed a bill automatically denying bail to ANY illegal alien arrested for a felony. Some judges fought against it but the state supreme court upheld it. Of course the ACLU and MALDEF are out shopping a lawsuit around the federal courts to find a sympathetic judge. I don’t see how declaring someone subject to deportation an automatic flight risk is unconstitutional but then again, I’m not a liberal attorney looking to line my pockets with taxpayer dollars (like the ACLU attorneys) or being paid by the Mexican government to keep the US border open for the drug cartels (like MALDEF).
As for construction and manufacturing jobs being over priced, try taking a look at the quality of work you get from these illegal aliens. If you want to see an overpaid profession, look at journalists. Unlike carpenters, plumbers, electricians, or any of the other construction trades, they aren’t required to actually produce anything of intrinsic value. You can’t lie and say a house was wired with copper and use aluminum anymore, the inspectors will make you rewire it. If you put in a drain line from a toilet and it doesn’t have adequate slope, the building inspectors will make you redo it. Same goes with using undersized nails in carpentry. When was the last time a journalist produced anything that anyone couldn’t live without? So exactly why do so many of them make over $100k while producing drivel about Paris Hilton, or Lindsay Lohan? Hell, under the first amendment, they can’t even be held accountable when they fabricate stories that ruin people’s lives. Newspapers can ruin people’s live through innuendo and lies with impunity, but McDonald’s loses a lawsuit for millions because some moron isn’t smart enough to not put a cup of hot coffee between her legs while she’s driving? BTW one of the previously repeatedly convicted, imprisoned and then deported illegal aliens who went on another violent crime rampage here last year was earning $19/hour as a heavy equipment operator. Exactly how many people in Detroit would turn down that kind of money? For that matter, if they’d offer the job to me, I’d have taken it with the OT this guy was collecting. We have plenty of people in this country who can be taught to do those kind of jobs and will take some pride in their work, the illegal aliens don’t.
We’ve tried being nice, now it’s time to get tough. AZ has seen a rise in illegal aliens leaving this state because we have consistently and repeatedly passed increasingly tougher anti illegal alien legislation. Those bills have passed on average by almost 3 to 1. These were referendums, not some representatives in the state legislature. This was the people utilizing their right to vote. We’ve had to take the Napolitano adminstration to court to FORCE them to abide by the laws regarding providing social welfare benefits to illegal aliens. Yes, one state can’t control immigration, but if one controls it within THEIR borders, and others follow suit, soon the illegal aliens won’t have anywhere to go. Notice that I do NOT call them illegal immigrants. There is a reason for that. They are not immigrants because they are not on any form of path towards citizenship. It doesn’t say Resident Immigrant across the top of a green card. It says Resident ALIEN. How could it be any less accurate to call someone who’s not on any form of path towards citizenship an IMMIGRANT while calling someone who has entered the country LEGALLY and has the ability to become a citizen down the road an ALIEN? To do so is simply another one of Political correctness’s LIES.
April 20, 2008 - 11:44 PM on April 20th, 2008
Pam: Sanctuary is a double-edged sword.
On the one hand, for those who want strict enforcement of immigration law, it does seem like an affront.
On the other hand, by not having the cops ask crime victims and/or witnesses about their immigration status, they were more willing to come forward and put violent criminals away.
—
As for the border enforcement, we have 2,000 miles of border with Mexico – but that is not all the “border” we have. Canada’s border with the US is even larger, and Canada has tended to give Islamic radicals (who are disproportionately prone to terrorism) asylum (meaning they get Canadian passports and new identities, plus welfare benefits).
And what exactly does “true border enforcement” entail? What is the standard that will be set for successful enforcement of the border? What are we willing to pay in order to accomplish that? What consequences will we have to live with? Strategypage.com reports that our security efforts on the Mexican border managed to merely increase the price to get across, making it worth the efforts of the drug cartels to get into that business.
Oh, and don’t forget the coasts. If they’re determined to come by sea, they will… and the Coast Guard will need a big-time increase for more patrol vessels, planes, and the personnel to man them.
April 21, 2008 - 01:27 AM on April 21st, 2008
#39 HCH: All you seem to be able to point to is my “uncivil” tone while offering no response to my quite rational arguments (based on reality).
Your arguments are typical intellectual debate: little resemblance to the actual problem.
FAO is talking reality, logic, and common sense. He clearly understands the real issues. It is clear he has lived with and experienced these issues firsthand, as I have. Have you?
April 21, 2008 - 02:38 AM on April 21st, 2008
HCH,
Do you think the family of a victim killed by an illegal alien drunk driver feels any less pain than one shot by an illegal alien drug dealer? Do you really believe that less harm has been done by the former?
April 21, 2008 - 05:03 AM on April 21st, 2008
Does anyone object to securing the border first – before addressing the issue of What To Do with those already here? If so.. why?
Yes, I know that 100% effectiveness is not possible; please give any other reasons you may have. Thx.
April 21, 2008 - 05:58 AM on April 21st, 2008
First of all, thanks to all that are participating
Secondly, let’s take a deep breath and remember that this isn’t an easy topic and it brings out the best and the worst in all of us. The idea behind this was to have a conservative debate/discussion. Let’s try to do something that our leaders won’t and look at this issue from all sides.
April 21, 2008 - 06:00 AM on April 21st, 2008
Fluffy, I do think that we do need to shut the borders down, which means anyone coming in on visas etc, for a designated period of time, in order to get a handle on this. We need to have a better idea of how many people we are actually talking about.
April 21, 2008 - 06:13 AM on April 21st, 2008
Harold, it isn’t a double edged sword imo. You have cities that are snubbing their noses at federal law and that is unacceptable. If they don’t like the law, challenge it in court. It is no more acceptable to me, that a city have a sanctuary policy, vs Berkely, that is in violation of feral law with regards to the Marines. We have laws and if there is a problem with them, we have courts, but we can not have individual cities breaking laws.
I disagree that the innocent ones come out of the shadows and put violent criminals away. I would challenge you to show me that is the case in NY City, LA, Chicago…It would be nice if it were true, but I just don’t think it is the case.
I live in MI and the traffic we have coming in is on the Canadian border. It’s a pain in the neck to get into Canada, let alone, get in and then try to manuver the land to cross at an open patch..
April 21, 2008 - 06:47 AM on April 21st, 2008
FAO,
Construction: The jobs are being awarded to American companies and then subcontracted out, and that is where the problems begin. The illegal being hired by the subcontractor may be earning the $/hr that an American person would get, but here’s the catch..The subcontractor runs a greater risk of getting caught paying under the table to the American worker.
Plumbers/Electricians/Heating and Cooling..I have spent a fortune over the years, but after having just been forced to replace the well pump and motor at my cottage, I can’t say that I have seen a high increase in pricing over the years. In my part of MI, I don’t see illegals being a problem in those fields. I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but with those three specialized trades..it is like the doctor of my house..I have 2 companies that I have used for years. I got their names from my parents..they do top notch work, they know my equipment, they tell me the truth.
April 21, 2008 - 08:31 AM on April 21st, 2008
Pam: I honestly would not know if they are coming forward or not. But again, it comes down to priorities. I have no problem with deporting violent criminals who entered this country illegally. NONE AT ALL.
But I question the ability to prioritize of people who seem to think that giving a crime victim or a witness the third degree about their immigration status is a good use of the limited resources the government has. I don’t think the person working for a living is the major problem. i find the thought of not screening those arrested for violent crimes MORE unacceptable than the fact that some city has said that they have better things to do than play immigration cop. I would assume that they probably have bigger fish to fry than raiding meatpacking plants.
I would also argue that Chicago, LA, and NYC have had bigger problems than sanctuary policies. I’d start with the usual problems you get in cities that tend to de dominated at the City Council level by liberals.
And as for Canada, I believe it was back in 1999 that a terrorist attack was broken up when the terrorist was caught coming in from Canada. No terrorist attacks have come out of Mexico, to my knowledge. But we did seem to getting blowback from the tougehr security measures Malkin and others demanded.
Robert: You? Rational? Don’t make me laugh. You pretty much said that AJ Strata and I must have been smoking pot and you insinuated treason on the part of those who did back comprehensive immigration reform. Since when did ad hominem attacks qualify as rational debate?
Fluffy Kitty: Define what you mean by secured border. Secure against what? Terrorists and drug smuggling? Or do we want a no-man’s land?
I would also suggest that you look up the difference between a premediated murder/felony murder and negligence. Our laws recognize the difference of such cases, and have going back centuries.
Pam: I think that conservative leaders have failed. They not only have failed to provide the type of debate needed (one that is civil and with respect all around), but I think that they have actively contributed to the inability to debate that exists now. I have a very hard time debating when I half-expect someone to imply I am an open-borders sellout or worse, a traitor because I favor the approach of President Bush and Senator McCain. It’s hard to maintain respect for a side of the debate when its leaders seem to view terms like “Jorge Bush” and “Juan McCain” as acceptable. If anything, their use of those terms leads me to believe that it is possible they have an obsession with Mexico and a desire to stick it to Mexico as opposed to a genuine desire to solve the problem.
April 21, 2008 - 08:44 AM on April 21st, 2008
[...] The Illegal Immigration Debate We Need To Have [...]
April 21, 2008 - 09:14 AM on April 21st, 2008
51- Harold, the key in this debate is forget about what you think someone is thinking of you..it isn’t relevant to what we are talking about. State your case and present facts when possible to backup your assertions.
Robert and FAO are two longstanding RV members and Robert is also an author here. Believe it or not, you would more than likely enjoy discussing various topics with them. This is the conversation that is the most difficult for us to have. You and I live in states that are not seeing the devastation of illegal immigration, while those two are, hence, it is a bit heated. What I am saying is that you have a position and they have a position. Each side needs to listen to the other and hopefully at the end of the day, we learned something. Both of these men have seen their public schools and local hospitals devastated, and that isn’t something we can just skip over.
April 21, 2008 - 09:16 AM on April 21st, 2008
A secured border means just that, secure from terrorists or illegal aliens. We need to have control over immigration. We need to know who is coming and who is going.
April 21, 2008 - 09:37 AM on April 21st, 2008
“I think that conservative leaders have failed. They not only have failed to provide the type of debate needed (one that is civil and with respect all around), but I think that they have actively contributed to the inability to debate that exists now.”
This is true, but it is true that the liberal leaders has also failed miserably in this respect. In many instances, when they approach someone opposed to their viewpoint they throw around words like “racist” and “genocide”.
April 21, 2008 - 09:39 AM on April 21st, 2008
Addendum to 55: The word “jingoism” is also thrown around haphazrdly.
April 21, 2008 - 11:42 AM on April 21st, 2008
“I am an open-borders sellout or worse, a traitor because I favor the approach of President Bush and Senator McCain. It’s hard to maintain respect for a side of the debate when its leaders seem to view terms like “Jorge Bush”and “Juan McCain”as acceptable. If anything, their use of those terms leads me to believe that it is possible they have an obsession with Mexico and a desire to stick it to Mexico as opposed to a genuine desire to solve the problem.”
I apologize to AJStrata for my first post, and Harold, I have been trying very, very hard to avoid insults. My comment about smoking was intended more tongue-in-cheek than anything, to addd emphasis to my valid and rational point asking whther you believe the same people who failed to enforce the 1986 laws. You extrapolated it to include AJ by your choice. I don’t know you and would not presume to seriously say anything about you personally.
But your posts, in my opinion, demonstrate a lack of real understanding of the problem from the street level. I am sure you have read plenty and have accessed many information sources. I just don’t see the grasp and priority of the most important issues within this argument. I do not mean this as condescension, just a reality check. I do get passionate about this issue because it is in the top 3 issues facing our Nation, any of which have the possibility to destroy America as we know it.
I get very frustrated when so-called moderates start bringing up arguments that do not address reality.
Irrational? Not by a mile. That is your own version of ad hominem.
Here’s my plan, which I have posted many times before. it is close to the House version:
1. TURN OFF the magnet.
2. Close the border.
3. End the anchor baby and chain migration.
4. Increase penalties for hiring illegals.
5. Deport ALL illegal criminals in our jails and prisons.
Once we have the problem under control, then we can start a guest worker program. But until we take stock, take charge, and get this under control we shouldn’t be doing anything else. The 1986 amnesty gave them all the bennies, without the enforcement. Now it is time for the enforcement first; then the bennies.
Anything less is going down the same failed road. One definition of stupid is doing the same thing and expecting different results.
We simply can’t afford to be stupid any longer.
April 21, 2008 - 11:45 AM on April 21st, 2008
Forgot to write in above post that, Harold, nobody is calling you a traitor. And I think any obsession is with doing what’s right for America. You are implying they are Xenophobes and Racists. You cry “Ad Hominem” then implicity use the same yourself.
April 21, 2008 - 11:47 AM on April 21st, 2008
The email states “Remember Michelle, all those dead children might have been alive if the Immigration Reform package had passed and these criminals would have been deported instead of given a second chance.”
That is NOT a true statement. Laying the dead bodies of children at the feet of people who want people to come here legally is really pathetic. I don’t believe for one minute there would have been a massive deportation if McCain’s immigration bill had passed.
April 21, 2008 - 11:50 AM on April 21st, 2008
“”AJ is correct in stating that we were never going to deport all the illegalsâ€
I’ve been saying this to you guys for years. (!)”
HOW MANY TIMES do you people have to be told that we don’t need to deport all the illegals? You keep throwing that up and it is a Red Herring, a smokescreen, a bullshit argument.
TURN OFF the magnet. Once they know the game is over, many will leave on their own. The word will go back. Then by normal operation of law (something I know all about) identified illegals will be repatriated gradually. It might take 20 years, but it took 20 years to get to this point.
We DON’T NEED to find and deport all the illegals!!! GET it?
April 21, 2008 - 12:04 PM on April 21st, 2008
Pam: Perhaps, but I have seen the Republican Party in my state take that hard-line position on illegal immigration, and run with it all the way to defeat for three consecutive years. It has failed each time.
The positions they hold cannot win Republican primaries, In 2006, in Arizona, Randy Graf ran on a hard-line position on immigration and lost in the general. He won the nomination with maybe 43% of the vote because two more moderate Republicans split the vote – Republicans who backed the President’s approach. As a result, the GOP arguably lost a Congressional seat.
Yet, at the same time, any time this failure to win at the polls is pointed out, they refuse to listen, to put it mildly. they keep telling me it is a winner, even though I have seen with my own eyes it is not. Worse, by insisting on a hard-line position on this issue that has not played well at the polls, I believe that they are placing successfully dealing with far more important things (particularly the Global War on Terror and reforming Social Security and Medicare) at risk.
I fear that a minority is wagging the dog, so to speak. From what I can gather, many of these contested primaries, like those involving Congressman Cannon of Utah, or the Republican presidential nomination this year indicate most Republicans prefer comprehensive immigration reform – or at least the candidates who have supported it. At some point, elections, particularly Republican primaries where this issue has been fought on ad nauseum need to mean something.
April 21, 2008 - 12:19 PM on April 21st, 2008
Robert: Oh… and what exactly should one call your insinuations that AJ and I smoke pot?
You flip the ad hominems yourself, but you can’t take what might be return fire. That makes you little better than a schoolyard bully.
April 21, 2008 - 12:22 PM on April 21st, 2008
Oh, and on “self-deportation,” Robert, you forget one thing:
these people are coming from places and circumstances FAR WORSE than unemployment here in the U.S.
With the underground economy in the U.S. (and let’s be honest, one does exist), they will probably become part of that instead , and stick it out here. They have been through far worse than you just to get here. To make them go, you will need to either root them out yourself OR you need to make life here in America WORSE than life was for them back in the old country.
Quite frankly, I think you would be deporting yourself long before they began to pack their bags and head home.
April 21, 2008 - 12:24 PM on April 21st, 2008
Debbie:
I don’t see how that is so unreasonable. When you demand a diversion or resources from serious problems to do things like raid meatpacking plants or construction sites, rather than processing the deportations of illegal immigrants who are in jail for serious offenses, or who are being arrested for violent crimes, then you are allowing some of the latter to slip through.
Given the way that I have seen Malkin and other opponents of the President’s approach use tragic violent crimes, I sometimes think that they do need a level of killing to keep their agenda viable.
April 21, 2008 - 12:30 PM on April 21st, 2008
Those illegals sitting in jail will stay in jail and then supposedly be deported…we make them do the time and then we deport them only to have many come right back in…
April 21, 2008 - 12:30 PM on April 21st, 2008
What underground economy? If the jobs dry up, they have no reason to stick around. Crime? they’re doing that now, in numbers here far in excess of their percentage of the population.
Removal by operation of law will solve the problem eventually, or at least reduce the numbers to a tolerable level, for the remaining ones that don’t leave voluntarily.
Things are getting so desperate in parts of Kalifornia it seems only a matter of time before we have chaos and civil war along the lines of the Shiites and the Sunnis.
April 21, 2008 - 12:33 PM on April 21st, 2008
“Robert: Oh: and what exactly should one call your insinuations that AJ and I smoke pot?”
I apologized to AJ (for something else), YOU characterized my comment as pertaining to AJ, and I stated my original intention in making the smoking argument. So now you can apologize to AJ for dragging him into your issue?
Your turn…
April 21, 2008 - 01:40 PM on April 21st, 2008
51 – HCH
“Fluffy Kitty: Define what you mean by secured border. Secure against what? Terrorists and drug smuggling? Or do we want a no-man’s land?”
I would be happy if 90% of the illegal traffic (going either way) was stopped. That would entail a robust physical obstruction in any area within, say, 30 miles of access to roadways on this side. It would have to be backed up with sufficient boots on the ground (we don’t have that now) with the mandate to stop everyone.
I am curious about your response. How do you propose telling a terrorist from a drug smuggler from a would-be dish-washer? Through 10x binoculars they all look the same.
51 – HCH
“I would also suggest that you look up the difference between a premediated murder/felony murder and negligence. Our laws recognize the difference of such cases, and have going back centuries.”
What has that got to do with my questions? …Nothing – you are deflecting. Nowhere was premediation indicated. Gun battles happen. Innocent victims can be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Granted, I was tired and could have worded my post better – I’ll try again.. I would appreciate answers.
Do you think the family of a victim killed by an illegal alien drunk driver who does construction work feels any less pain than the family of a victim shot by an illegal alien drug dealer? Do you really believe less harm has been done to the family by the former?
——————————–
Do you understand the cultural differences when it comes to driving while drunk? For hispanics (not just those here illegally) it can be an expression of machismo. Being stopped by the cops is viewed as an annoyance; it’s really not much of a deterrent. There is a certain level of resentment that US cops don’t play by the same rules as the ones they are used to.
A) The action (driving while drunk) not only has no social stigma, it is admired by some.
B) If the policia stop you, it’s only to make a few bucks – slip them some and be on your way.
—warning — More often than not, B no longer applies to tourists
That’s the mindset – I actually find it a greater danger than selling drugs, as each and every one of us is a potential victim.
April 21, 2008 - 02:26 PM on April 21st, 2008
61 – HCH
“In 2006, in Arizona, Randy Graf ran on a hard-line position on immigration and lost in the general. He won the nomination with maybe 43% of the vote because two more moderate Republicans split the vote – Republicans who backed the President’s approach. As a result, the GOP arguably lost a Congressional seat.”
I doubt you are familiar enough with Arizona politics, or what happened in the AZ CD8 race, to accurately interpret the result.
April 21, 2008 - 02:39 PM on April 21st, 2008
Hey fluffy, can you explain what went down in the race so those of us that don’t know are more familiar with it?
Thanks
~ Pam
April 21, 2008 - 03:07 PM on April 21st, 2008
Pam,
I don’t know if I can without blowing a gasket and using every cuss word I know.
The short version is that the RNCC (Republican National Congressional Committee) INTERFERED in the local primary and then, when the primary voters defied them; Open Borders Mafia Republicans committed treason by actively and openly supporting the Democrat candidate.
The bottom line is THE NATIONAL GOP made the decision to GIVE the AZ CD8 seat to the Democrats without a fight BECAUSE Open Borders and amnesty was more important than any other issue.
Look who they gave it to, without any protest… Gabby Giffords. Look her up… look up her voting record. The National GOP betrayed us and cut off their nose to spite their face.
That’s one reason it really IRKS me whenever I hear anyone say we need to be loyal to the GOP and vote for the Republican candidate, whether we agree with his/her positions or not.
April 21, 2008 - 03:28 PM on April 21st, 2008
Fluffy, thanks for the firsthand explanation. Kind of sheds a different light on what we’re being told above, doesn’t it?
And I, like you, have a difficult time even thinking about this critical issue, seeing the sellout by the RINOs, without blowing a gasket.
April 21, 2008 - 03:36 PM on April 21st, 2008
fluffy, I’ll do some research. 2 points though
1. The RNC has done a horrendous job of putting up good candidates. This fall is horrific
2. I support McCain inspite of his immigration stance. I also find the SCOTUS to be of importance, as well as judicial nominees on other courts. The war, taxes, economy, education, abortion and the military are also very important to me.
If love means never having to say you are sorry, then supporting a candidate doesn’t mean you can never disagree.
One point that I think needs to be brought up at this point is the way these bills have been written. What’s getting tossed in that had no place there? IIRC, the immigration bill was agreed upon and then words were added after the vote?
Another thing that is bothering me about the last immigration bill: A pathway to citizenship..who says the 10-12 million actually want it? What is the guarantee that they will come out of the shadows, pay the fine and become citizen’s? Let’s say they don’t come forward, who is going to go looking for them? What is the benefit of them coming forward?
April 21, 2008 - 04:10 PM on April 21st, 2008
“Another thing that is bothering me about the last immigration bill: A pathway to citizenship..who says the 10-12 million actually want it? What is the guarantee that they will come out of the shadows, pay the fine and become citizen’s? Let’s say they don’t come forward, who is going to go looking for them? What is the benefit of them coming forward?”
You nailed another of the things that don’t add up, Pam. Why would someone pay that money when they can just go on as they are? I’ll bet most of them would not pay, would stay illegal.
We would not substantially change much of anything that is wrong, with that bill, and we’d send another message to their homeland that we’re really not serious so come on down!
April 21, 2008 - 04:13 PM on April 21st, 2008
“What is the benefit of them coming forward?”
Perhaps so as not to embarass Ted Kennedy? After all he has faith, he’s counting on them, and surely they will not let him down?
April 21, 2008 - 04:17 PM on April 21st, 2008
Pam,
I agree, there are many important issues. The war in Iraq will end.
As much as I dislike Hillary, I don’t believe she will be outright foolish. I can’t say the same for Obama; however, I firmly believe the repercussions and problems brought by an unsecure border and continuing illegal immigration will prove to have a greater impact on this country than the war in Iraq in the long term.
I cannot see how anyone with a straight face can say they are concerned about terrorism and at the same time object to securing our very borders.
April 21, 2008 - 04:21 PM on April 21st, 2008
One of the problems with granting citizenship is that we allow others to retain their original citizenship. There is no requirement for allegiance to this country ONLY.
Calderon: “Wherever there is a Mexican, that is Mexicoâ€.
April 21, 2008 - 04:34 PM on April 21st, 2008
The debasement of citizenship was a feature of the decline of the Roman Republic. It took them hundreds of years, we’ve done it in only 40 or so. Woo Hoo!
April 21, 2008 - 04:50 PM on April 21st, 2008
78 Robert,
BINGO!
28 HCH,
“I think the first priorities have to be violent criminals, drug dealers, and terrorists. Once those segments under control, then talk to me about others,”
Our border with Mexico is a revolving door for violent criminals and drug dealers. For terrorists it is a welcome mat.
If this is your first priority, then securing the border should be #1 on your list of actions that need to be taken. Are we then in agreement that securing the borders is the highest priority?
April 21, 2008 - 05:05 PM on April 21st, 2008
21 AJStrata,
“The truth is there will be no legislation for years – another result the far right did not appreciate when it pulled out all the stops to stop the legislation.”
What benefit is there in compounding a problem with poor legislation? (And, yes, it was poor. If there had not been massive problems with it, it would have passed. Allowing only a 24 hour time frame for a background check before the automatic awarding of a Z visa kicked in was one such problem.)
April 21, 2008 - 05:19 PM on April 21st, 2008
75- How cute that you think there is anything that ould embarass that murdering sot!
April 21, 2008 - 05:26 PM on April 21st, 2008
It’s hard to have a discussion when those holding other opinions cut and run.
April 21, 2008 - 05:32 PM on April 21st, 2008
71: Fluffy Kitty neglects to mention that Randy Graf only got 42.2% of the vote in the primary. That’s nowhere near a majority of the primary voters.
(Source: http://www.azsos.gov/election/2006/Primary/Canvass2006PE.pdf)
Yet Jim Kolbe, who favored the approach by President Bush, won that district with 60% of the vote the two previous elections… how does Randy Graf lose 18 points of support in the state that is supposedly most affected by illegal immigration.
Could it be that the voters of the 8th congressional district did not like him. What proves that there was sabotage or treason, other than Fluffy Kitty’s say-so?
April 21, 2008 - 05:41 PM on April 21st, 2008
Fluffy Kitty:
As I said, if terrorism is the big issue, then look more towards Canada, not Mexico. Canada gives Islamic radical asylum, meaning they get new identities, Canadian passports, and welfare benefits as well.
As for violent criminals and drug dealers, why not screen when we arrest them? Why waste time raiding meatpacking plants and construction sites?
April 21, 2008 - 05:50 PM on April 21st, 2008
First of all, it was not the “Far Right”that defeated that shamnesty bill, it was the collective voice of the American people, right and left. It is a canard that the only opponents to illegal immigration are extreme right wing republicans. The fact is that anytime the public is polled on illegal immigration, the results are pretty much the same, about two thirds of the public wants the laws enforced and the flow stopped, and then they’ll listen to ideas about a guest worker program, but not before then. And AJ, stop using that stupid phrase, “Amnesty Hypochondriacsâ€. Every time you say that, you ought to be arrested by the prose police for the felony stupid abuse of a word.
Second, there were a lot of real problems with that bill. There were a lot of snakes in the oil that were being purposely hidden from the public. That’s why McCain and Kennedy tried to subvert the process and work around the normal committees and just vote on it up or down before anyone got a chance to read it. They were literally adding changes the night before the vote. They would not allow Americans or even the voting Congress to know what they were doing, that was what created so much anger. These two jerks were attempting to pass what would have amounted to the most significant legislation as far as its impact on America in the last twenty years and they didn’t want to debate one damned point of it, and you stand there and talk about the debate we need to have? The fact is that whenever we start debating the illegal alien problem, rational minds quickly see that there are real problems created when one tries to legalize illegality.
This bill was not well thought out and it was probably impossible to actually implement it. It proposed having workers ‘come out of the shadows’ and identify themselves. How do you confirm who they really are? What would stop someone, maybe a felon, who has been stealing identities for years from walking in and giving a false name? Now you have given a legal and legit false identity to someone who can go out and purchase a gun or do one of any number of things they couldn’t before. What would keep that person from walking in from the shadows and getting five new legit fake identities? Do you see what I’m getting at? You cannot have someone walk into an ICE office with nothing in their pocket but lint and give them a brand new American identity based on their word alone. What would stop a woman from getting nine or ten identities and getting social services on all of them? (hint: this has already been done). So you say we have to have background checks. One of the snakes in this bills oil was that if the background check was not completed within 24 hours, the work visa would be approved. 24 hours? We have a government organization called CIS, that conducts these checks. They get through about 30,000 a year. How many years would it take to do twelve million? (probably more than 24 hours) Other snakes in the oil, these new guest workers would be eligible for drivers licenses, which because of motor voter laws, would automatically put them on the voters list. When challenged on this, McCain lied and said they wouldn’t be able to vote. Reality was another story. Another little snake in this bill was the “assumption of eligibility”clause which stated that any undocumented person would be considered eligible for the new guest worker program, so they would not be subject to deportation. This would mean that INS would not be able to pick up illegals anymore because technically, nobody would meet that status unless you could prove they were deported before. And when the Mexican authorities will give you a Consular Matricula card without you showing any proof of who you are, you could come up here with a different name every time. The same people who endlessly rant about not being able to deport 12 million people claim that it would be no problem to cherry pick the two million with criminal records and send them back post haste. Does anybody really believe that. This bill was meant to create a law that was never going to be enforced, but the amnesty part of it would be in force.
Another little gem was that these new guest workers would get union scale wages! Yes, that was in the law. Now we have a law mandating that they get paid MORE than some American citizens. I can actually see a positive side to this. The truth is that the only reason employers hire illegals now is that they get away with paying them a lot less money. If this law part of the law were to actually happen, and the old illegals demanded union scale, they would be let go and new illegals willing to work for less would take their jobs. Do you see where this is going people? You have to have legal standards that are adhered to in any free market in order for it to be a free market and that includes the labor market! You talked about labor being ‘over-valued’. Over-valued at what standard? Mexico’s? What you are advocating is the devolution of the American worker. In the beginning of the 20th century, we had a lot of labor abuses in this country, slave wages, child labor, poor working conditions and all that went with it. Through the years, Americans (h/t to the unions here), have fought for better pay, humane conditions and the result was the most prosperous working class on the planet. Even a non-high school graduate could get a good job, buy a house, and put their kids through college. What we are seeing now, is the reversal of that success. If Mexicans will live ten or twenty to a house in order to work for far less money, then they cut out Americans who need those jobs. What you are promoting is the idea that American workers should have to live at the same level of illegal immigrants or not work. Do you really want to go down that road? When Bank of America came out with this campaign a few years ago advertising that they wanted to give illegal aliens credit cards, they were embracing the anarchy. They had been giving home loans to them for years. I have many friends working in real estate out here who have told me that it was a bad idea to create the whole “No-Doc”loan program. A program that was specifically tailored to lend mortgage money to illegal aliens. This type of loan does not require you to show proof of your job or earnings. So what does an illegal have to lose? They took out these mortgages like crazy around here, they took out a home equity loan when the value went up in a year, then got HELOC’s and went crazy spending. When the bubble bursts, they’re walking away laughing whilst our politicians are trying to figure up a way for the American taxpayer to foot the bill! How stupid can you possibly be to give a credit card or a home loan to someone who you don’t even know for sure who they are? By the way, headline on Drudge today, “Bank of America Net Income Falls 77% on Writedownsâ€
I live in San Diego. The construction industry here is almost entirely Mexican labor. Contractors pick them up at street corners and pay them forty or fifty bucks and the end of the day and drop them off. They pay no taxes except sales taxes on what they buy. By the way, the “underground economy”is now just the economy. I have seen one U-haul after another get loaded up by friends of mine who were roofers, dry-wallers, painters, carpet layers, cabinet makers, plumbers, electricians, who had enough and had to pack up and leave the state because they couldn’t compete with contractors using illegal labor. Again, free markets are only free if they are law abiding.
I was in Tucson recently visiting my mother. I went to one of those drive through car washes where they dry your car off by hand. What I saw stunned me. A young black kid took my money and three white teenagers, one girl and two boys came out and dried off my car. Why was I surprised? I’ve been living in the southwest for seventeen years now and I have only seen Mexicans drying cars. In Arizona, they recently passed a law to stop illegals from working with the threat of the business owners license. All of a sudden, these are jobs Americans will do! Imagine that. I picked fruit as a kid in Michigan, my ex-wife worked in a poultry plant. These are not jobs Americans won’t do, they just won’t do them for illegal wages. Now that a lot of Mexicans are leaving Arizona and returning to the Sonoran Province, Mexicans are crying foul because they don’t want to deal with their own damn people!
Sanctuary policies only benefit gang members. Why? Because the idea that someone is going to turn in a gang-banger for any crime at all because they are not afraid of being deported is just plain stupid. The public is much more afraid of being killed by the gang than they are of the cops. The net result is the gangs control the neighborhoods with immunity. This is beside the fact that prosecutors openly declaring policies that they will not enforce laws they don’t like takes us further down that road of accepting individual anarchy in government.
Is race a factor in this debate? You betcha, just ask La Raza. That’s “The Race”translated for those of you who don’t live ten minutes from the Mexican border like I do. There is an awful lot of racial animosity in Hispanics toward us gringos. My twelve year old nephew had to be taken out of his school in Tucson and home schooled because the school he was in was about 85% Mexicans who started fights with him every day because he was the only white kid in his class. His mom walked him out of that school in tears while those sweet little Mexican b***ards taunted him in Spanish as he walked away. He will never ever forget that. He’s thirteen now and already has a deep hatred of Hispanics. A lot of Hispanics in the southwest do buy into the MecHa Aztlan philosophy and they don’t believe us gringos belong here, they want us out. Google it.
The problem with illegal immigration in America is that there is such a large number of Mexicans ignoring our border and squatting in the US is that it is causing the merging of two very large, very different populations and cultures. Have any of you been to Mexico? It’s got some nice hotels and some decent places by the beach but all in all, it is a drug ridden, crime ridden, lawless craphole. They don’t speak the same language, have the same values, or even drive like we do. When they come up here, they don’t change. One morning last month I woke up at seven in the morning and the radio news was on. Three pedestrians had been run over and killed in ONE HOUR already this morning. The news doesn’t tell you who did it but you already know. Hit and run is epidemic in San Diego. It happens almost every day. Even the bravest soles I know here don’t go down there anymore for fear of their life. Kidnapping Americans for ransom is sport down there. They even come across the border to do it and take their victims back to mexico. Mexico is open Anarchy and that’s why it is such an awful place to live. What our pro-illegal folks seem to be doing is accepting that anarchic lifestyle here in the US in some misguided sympathy to the Mexican illegals. If they really wanted to help them, they would send them all home and make them clean up their own mess at home. But they don’t want to go home. It’s easier to come here and bleed the system.
April 21, 2008 - 05:51 PM on April 21st, 2008
#83 HCH,
Agreed, you have to take some of what I say on faith – private conversations were not recorded… however you do not have to take my word alone. Google is your friend.
#84 HCH,
Are you really comparing Canada’s law enforcement agencies to those of Mexico?
Are you really comparing Canada’s stance on border security to that of Mexico?
Are you really comparing Canada’s friendship to the US to that of Mexico?
Unbelieveable!
April 21, 2008 - 05:54 PM on April 21st, 2008
HCH,
Please read and respond to #79.
April 21, 2008 - 05:57 PM on April 21st, 2008
HCH,
Please also answer the questions I posed to you in #68
April 21, 2008 - 06:06 PM on April 21st, 2008
HCH,
Feel free to also answer the question I posed to AJStrata in #80
April 21, 2008 - 06:36 PM on April 21st, 2008
I have always been more afraid of Canada than Mexico and time and time again people tell me that I’m wrong. But one only has to remember that the Y2K bomber was going to LA by way of Canada and it wasn’t Clintons ’security’ that stopped him but an observant border guard.
There is also an Indian reservation in upstate NY that is suspect in transporting immigrants. It borders Canada and is exempt from many federal laws by way of it’s being an Indian reservation. Last I heard it was mostly contraband being smuggled through (i.e., cigarettes, liquor) but for a price…one never knows.
April 21, 2008 - 06:37 PM on April 21st, 2008
Bikerke-Thanks so very much for that most informative piece!
April 21, 2008 - 06:44 PM on April 21st, 2008
Bikerken,
THANK YOU! Anyone who actually lives along the border knows that what you say is 100% true!!
April 21, 2008 - 06:54 PM on April 21st, 2008
#90 BonBon,
Not living where you do, it would be out of line for me to comment on your situation – other than to say I support border security for our entire country.
There are confirmed instances of people from “countries of interest” (from places like Iran, Pakistan, etc) crossing our southern border. I believe the number is 9,000/yr – those of course, are only the ones who are CAUGHT.
How much news to you receive regarding the happenings along our southern border?
I haven’t read any articles about Canadian military crossing into the US, accompanying drug loads. Nor have I read about BP or National Guard units being run off by armed men. It happens here. Does it happen there?
April 21, 2008 - 06:58 PM on April 21st, 2008
HCH?
April 21, 2008 - 07:12 PM on April 21st, 2008
You’re welcome Pam. By the way,you hit the nail on the head when you asked, “A pathway to citizenship..who says the 10-12 million actually want it?” The dirty little secret is, THEY DON’T WANT IT! They simply want to be able to stay here and get the law off their back. And co-incidently, that is exactly the effect that the passage of the ‘Comprehensive’ immigration bill would have had. It takes a citizen of the US months to get a passport. What makes anyone think they could process millions of people with questionable or no identification in any amount of time at all. The answer is that they really know it can’t be done, but once you get the amnesty part in effect, the same politicians who extolled the virtues about documenting them out of the shadows will say, oh well, that’s not going to work, but we’ll keep the amnesty. Think of this, if you were a criminal, wouldn’t you want to live in a place that did not even know who you were? Even if you get caught, you can change identities like most people change shoes. As a side note, my nephew who had to leave school, has already had his social security number stolen so many times, they had to issue him a new SSN, he’s thirteen. They figured it was probably stolen from his school, since that’s the only place where he ever had to give it.
Another note to Fluffy, I know what you mean about the Open borders Nazis in the Republican party rigging elections. How do you think we ended up with McCain as a nominee. In CA50 (Northern San Diego district) we had Brian Bilbray (R) running against Ruth Busby (D). Four days before the election, someone sent one of the local djays a tape they recorded at a Busby townhall meeting in Escondido. The press was not invited to the meeting and all the signs and flyers for in were in spanish. There were a couple of hundred illegals there asking her about voting. One guy said in spanish that he didn’t have papers. Her response was, and I’m quoting, “You don’t need papers to vote.” She was out there recruiting illegals to vote in our elections. She lost by about ten points. Bilbray is one of our best anti-illegal immigration voices in the house.
April 21, 2008 - 07:12 PM on April 21st, 2008
Pam,
I’ve just finished reading the comments on AJStrata’s blog. I can’t say that I also respect him. He comes across in his responses as an arrogant twit, imo.
April 21, 2008 - 07:13 PM on April 21st, 2008
Granted I don’t live in a border state and I don’t for a minute kid myself that things are bad OR that middle eastern terrorists couldn’t come through the southern border.
All I’m saying is that I believe the threat from the Canadian border is way understated.
April 21, 2008 - 07:18 PM on April 21st, 2008
Bikerken,
I suppose they do the same where you live… along the AZ border campaign signs for US offices were posted IN MEXICO during the last election.
I take it, you’re a biker?
April 21, 2008 - 07:20 PM on April 21st, 2008
BonBon,
RAISE A RACKET, PLEASE!!
April 21, 2008 - 07:31 PM on April 21st, 2008
Bikerken-
The illegals aren’t stupid, they know that there are 12 million waiting to take their place.
Fluffy and Bon Bon- We have Dearbornistan over by Detroit..I would guess that there is an illegal or two from areas other than the south!
April 21, 2008 - 07:40 PM on April 21st, 2008
Fluffy, yeah, I have three Harleys. I love riding and that’s part of the reason I live here. I can ride all year long and make a lot of trips up the coast to Big Sur, the Redwoods, up to Sturgis SD for bike week, Vegas, Laughlin. I also go to Tucson to visit mom and Phoenix once in a while. I usually stop in the Billet Bar in Scottsdale. I like to just take a weekender up to Santa Barbra for a night. I used to live in Camarillo when I worked at the Missile Test Center up there. I have been up and down the coast and through LA many times and I have seen the illegal thing up close and personal for a long time. By the way, LA, oooohhh, there’s some nasty places there. Santa Ana is starting to resemble parts of Baghdad with Spanish writing. The last time I stopped for gas in Santa Ana, there was a small condemned strip mall with what appeared to be no electricity in it and someone was selling meat in one of the abandoned stores. There was a hand painted sign in front of the store that just said, “MEAT”. And people were going in there and buy unrefridgerated meat. Ugh!
The last time I was in Phoenix, I drove into town on the ten fwy and the westbound side of the rode was empty. When I got to see what the problem was, there was an illegal in the middle of the freeway with a stopped stolen van in a gun standoff with police. The next day, a phoenix police officer was behind a truck in an unmarked car. The guy in front of him threw a lit butt in the street, (that’s a serious crime in a high fire area). He lit the truck up and the driver of the truck, an illegal, Stomped on the gas, pushing the car in front of him into cross traffic getting that person t-boned. The driver lost her leg and bled to death in the intersection. The illegal proceeded to pull up and back up fast smashing his truck into the police car over and over and over again. This was one who was previously deported and came back with a new name. Anyone from AZ knows what kind of chaos is associated with this problem.
April 21, 2008 - 07:44 PM on April 21st, 2008
Pam, I gotta story for you that’s gonna crack you up. When my nephew was about eight years old, he lived with me for a few years. He was in the first grade at a local school that my mother was volunteering at. She met this little six year old Iraqi boy in class who was real shy but she was trying to get him to talk. She asked him, where was his family from? He said they just came from Detroit. My mother said, Oh really? I’m from Detroit, did you like it there? And he said, “No, it’s too much like Iraq!”
April 21, 2008 - 07:47 PM on April 21st, 2008
Bikerken,
If I give Pam my permission to forward you my email addy, would you send me yours? I’d like to discuss some things off-line…
Pam,
Would you do that for me if Bikerken is interested in pursuing a conversation off-line?
April 21, 2008 - 07:52 PM on April 21st, 2008
Yeah Kitty, I’m ok with that.
April 21, 2008 - 08:54 PM on April 21st, 2008
102-
Now that is funny! 
April 21, 2008 - 09:01 PM on April 21st, 2008
FAO sent me this link so I want to add it here: Racist Mexican Gangs “Ethnic Cleansing” Blacks In L.A.
Latino thugs indiscriminately murder blacks regardless of gang membership, genocidal purge aligns with radical Aztlan theology
Continue reading
Hate Crimes: The Whitey Did It?
April 21, 2008 - 10:31 PM on April 21st, 2008
I actually got that link from (OMG) Blackwater. They send out a weekly newsletter to people who have expressed an interest in their schools. In my case, I was turned on to an ad for a supposed private security contracting firm that claimed to provide training before placement in high paying security positions abroad. When I read through the ad and visited the website, all kinds of bells and whistles started going off. Hint folks, if you’re going to try and run an id theft scam pretending to be a security training and placement firm, don’t claim to have a training facility in Moyock, NC. When I contacted Blackwater about the ad, they were quite surprised that someone they had never heard of was claiming to be using their facility.
Here’s another two links also courtesy of the Blackwater Tactical Weekly that you might find interesting:
http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/local/82798.php
http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/issues/2008/May/SecurityBeat.htm#Border
April 21, 2008 - 10:39 PM on April 21st, 2008
Wow, Blackwater must’ve been on a tear about illegal aliens and Mexican criminal activity. Here’s another link about Illegal Mexican activity in the US. They had 5 articles and links about illegal acitivities conducted by Hispanics in the US.
http://www.knowgangs.com/gang_resources/profiles/surenos/
April 21, 2008 - 11:24 PM on April 21st, 2008
Bikerken #85:
You’ve summed it up well. Notice no response from the other side. Have they cut and run? Or is reality too far below their intellectual level to spend any more time on?
The Senate Shamnesty bill, authored by ChapaTraitor Kennedy, was a huge, steaming pos. NO BILL is better, for the reasons I have described earlier.
Harold keeps posting about candidates, percentages, here and thetre, but won’t take on the FACT that in Kalifornia, a State heavily impacted by illegals (and a “blue” state) EVERY time the people get to vote on a proposition to turn off the magnet it PASSES overwhelmingly. What more proof does anyone need than that?
Once again, proponents of the Senate Shamnesty bill have failed to mount a convincing argument.
Michelle Malkin 1, her detractors 0.
April 21, 2008 - 11:34 PM on April 21st, 2008
I just read the rest of the posts between #85 and 108 and I gotta say by my count the pro-Shamnesty side has been nuked. Their arguments have so many logical and common sense holes they look like swiss cheese. When you match up what they say with reality and history, there’s not much overlap.
April 22, 2008 - 12:03 AM on April 22nd, 2008
Thanks for the links, Pam and FAO.
FAO – I don’t have the slightest problem with someone being hispanic; I DO object to illegal immigration – and I don’t care WHERE the person is from.
Robert – I agree – it appears they have cut and run. Since they won’t answer the simplest of questions, it is apparent they are not interested in discussing the issues. ..
There is a foreign documentary film crew wrapping up in my area now. It’s hard to tell what their slant is going to be and the film won’t be finished until sometime next year.
Unsecured borders and illegal immigration are problems worldwide.
April 22, 2008 - 12:40 AM on April 22nd, 2008
Robert, They don’t care. If you ever read AJ Strata’s website when he discusses the illegal immigration problem, there is absolutely no logic to his positions whatsover. He just says LOL alot and repeats the same old delusions. He really seems to believe that the CIRB was an improvement on the situation we have now. You were right above that bad legistlation is worse than none. I keep wondering what his stake in this is. There are only three types of people who supported this bill, Hispanics who want to see a more hispanic America, people who have no idea what a problem illegal immigration is because it has not impacted their life or it has and they are really stupid, and the third group is people who are making money off it. I too am damned sick and tired of people who live in gated communities around the beltway who have illegal nannies and gardeners telling those of us who live like I do, (there are probably close to two million illegals within 150 miles of me), to just shut up and allow our country to be over run because they like their nanny and gardner.
Oh, Fluffy, Thanks for the link on the side. Sent you a response.
April 22, 2008 - 12:46 AM on April 22nd, 2008
No, FluffyKitty, I had better things to do – and something called a life away from this.
I will note that Robert again made a treason insinuation (he might think ChapaTraitor is cute), in addition to his previous comments that implied that AJ-Strata and I were and that FluffyKitty saw fit to accuse SJ Reidhead of lying.
A rational debate and discussion are impossible when the abusive conditions in comments towards me, AJ, and SJ Reidhead exist and persist, simply because we do not share their irrational obsession with Mexico and/or Mexicans. To be labeled a traitor because I back the President and Senator McCain’s approach to immigration (as do conservatives like Linda Chavez) is insulting, particularly in light of the actions of people like Lynne Stewart (who passed messages to the followers of Omar Abdel-Rahman), the person or persons responsible for forwarding information to al-Qaeda from Rahman’s trial, and whoever it was that leaked the NSA programs to James Risen.
I have better things to do with my life that to try to waste effort to have a rational debate at this point. Pam, if you want a debate, you need to call out the online bullies who make those comments. They seem to enjoy ganging up on those who do not share their irrational obsession over Mexico.
When circumstances permitting rational debate exist on this blog, please let me know. You have my e-mail address. But right now, I do not think they exist.
April 22, 2008 - 12:54 AM on April 22nd, 2008
HCH,
As I suspected you would – you refuse to answer any direct questions, no matter how simple they are.
You don’t want to participate in a debate, that’s obvious.
April 22, 2008 - 12:57 AM on April 22nd, 2008
HCH,
SJReidhead referred to me as an idiot before I responded to her. But that’s OK with you, isn’t it? I think that makes you a hypocrite.
April 22, 2008 - 01:33 AM on April 22nd, 2008
“Irrational obsession with Mexico, or Mexicans” Well see, there you go people. HCH cannot respond to good questions because to even bring it up is irrational. I’m glad to hear that HCH, I’m going to tell my nephew to go back to that violence ridden ELEMENTARY school where the sweet little guys dress in gang attire just like their parents and fight everyone who is not latino. He’ll be glad to know, as you pointed out, that he was just being irrational and he can go back to school now and the kids will all act like civilized human beings,….right? Side note about that incident. When his mother went looking for some home schooling aid, they found her! Evidently, there are a lot of kids in the same position and they had a program all set up. That’s where the other irrational white kids were!
This is so typical of leftists. Here’s how it works. They come up with a bad idea, the real rational people say that’s not a good idea. Then the leftists scream and crap all over themselves calling us bigots and every name in the book and do everything they can to get the idiotic idea passed against everyone elses will. Then they get it done. Not too long after, it becomes apparent that the idea was a really dumb thing to do because the situation has gotten much worse. Then the leftist says, “You know, we only have ourselves to blame, because WE passed the law.” First of all, NO, we have you to blame. And we told you all along what was going to happen. Then, after you think you have seen it all, They come up with the same idea and WANT TO DO IT AGAIN!!!!!! After you point out to them how well it didn’t work last time, and you don’t see any reason why it won’t fail again, then they say, YOU ARE JUST OBSESSING AGAINST MY IDEA! You didn’t like it before and you don’t like it now! Your just the idea bigot and you’re being irrational!
Sound familiar? Let me see now, Kennedy immigration Bill, 1966, Kennedy immigration bill, 1986. Kennedy immigration bill 2006. This is proof positive that leftists are indeed technically insane!
But you don’t hear a counter argument about how you can verify identifications of illegals, how you can process millions of people, each in less than 24 hours. There are no intelligent responses to those problems. They are being irrational!
April 22, 2008 - 02:02 AM on April 22nd, 2008
There you go again, HCH:
HCH: “I will note that Robert again made a treason insinuation (he might think ChapaTraitor is cute), in addition to his previous comments that implied that AJ-Strata and I were…”
ChapaTraitor, for your information, is my name for Ted Kennedy, based on his long record of undermining America plus his criminal behavior at Chappaquiddick. Once again, you extrapolate and twist my posting into something it is not.
All you can do is make weak arguments, then when they are countered you start whining and complaining. You don’t address the points that blow gaping holes in your position, you just ignore them and keep repeating the same crap.
And what’s more I don’t believe you are even a Republican. You are certainly not a Conservative.
April 22, 2008 - 02:07 AM on April 22nd, 2008
Ken #112 I hear you. There is only one acceptable course of action:
1. TURN OFF the magnet.
2. CLOSE the border.
3. Increase penalties for hiring illegals such that few will want to risk it.
4. Deport the criminals.
5. End the anchor babies and chain migration.
6. Let the normal operation of LE gradually pick up and deport others.
After some period, when the above is implemented and we have things under control, then we can start the guest worker program.
Not until then…
April 22, 2008 - 02:08 AM on April 22nd, 2008
AMEN Rob!
April 22, 2008 - 02:58 AM on April 22nd, 2008
Harold C. Hutchinson, clearly these Neocon Neanderthals are not worthy of your intellect. I can see you tried to engage them, but they are not capable of civilized discourse.
We progressives welcome you to our side! You make a lot of sense; your arguments are complete and cutting-edge. You are expert at citing data to support your points, while all the Neocons offer in rebuttal is their angry irrational Xenophobia and obsession with brown-skinned people.
I don’t expect to see you post here any more, but you are very welcome at Kos and moveon.org. Your efforts to assist our objectives have not gone unnoticed and if you keep it up perhaps we may find away to reward you. Just keep websurfing and posting your nuggets of wisdom and information in right-wing blogs and websites wherever you find them.
Some of our Hispanic members especially appreciate your efforts. In fact, they want to give you a Hispanic nickname, in recognition of your support: Julio Aparato Pendejo! Please use it from now on as a sign of recognition of your Hispanic brethren!
April 22, 2008 - 03:28 AM on April 22nd, 2008
You kill me Lenny!